 Mixing with CD's or MP3's |
D-Lux
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Originally posted by Dave_Akuma
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Originally posted by D-Lux
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Originally posted by I-Witness
who cares, those artiste have money enough... |
U really think these guys are full time producers?
Sorry guys this just pisses me off!!!
I have been into more then one off this like discussions, I always had the support from other ppl except on this board apperantly!...
And when I download mp3 its for sharing them with others, its for exploring some new music wich I eventually will buy (YES HONNESTLY I DO IT!!! )
It used to b different I admit, but not anymore for me. If u really think dnb producers "have enough money" I suggest you go talk to some off them. Maybe u will change your mind.
Sorry to b this harsh but I don´t feel comfortable by this ... |
if you don't feel comfortable with this, then dont download tunes yourself, cuz that's hurting the producers just as much as doing a mix set of downloaded tunes...don't think that you're doing anything different, or 'helping' the producers in any way---by downloading tunes yourself, you are essentially taking money from them too...at least from me, you're not gonna get my support on this becuz you admitted that you download tunes, but you're getting upset at surya ONLY becuz he decided to make a little mix outta those tunes...he's not trying to make money off of this mix, i don't remember having to pay to download this mix, so if you want me to be harsh, he's just doing the same thing you do, which is download tunes...if it seriously bothers you so much, stop downloading tunes and buy em all on vinyl......this time you even admitted to sharing the tunes with friends....you're just as much in the 'wrong' as you're making surya out to be---you downloaded tunes without paying for them, and then you pass these tunes out to your friends, meaning that they aren't paying for them either...so if surya's doing so much harm to the producers, you're doing just as much harm---don't think you're doing anything different...you're guilty of doing the very thing that apparently seems to piss you off so much, so of course no one's gonna take you seriously on this...the truth hurts sometimes (how's that for harsh?) |
U must have said 10 times the same thing there, so I stopped reading after 5 times :p
When I say I download some tunes it mean I download like 10 mp3´s each month (it used to b different I admit) And Most off those I go buy in the shop if i really like them. (exmpl: panacea, prince, beasty boys, dj krush and allot of ninja tunes artists)
All the rekkids I share in a mix, I BOUGHT! Its not cause I go mix on a party, that I get payed for it (only a few times I do), tho I invested LOTS off money in it. So it pisses me off that some "profiteurs" go steal my job when they never payed for ANY trak they play. I am not saying that surya is stealing my job, but I KNOW some ppl who DO mix on party´s with only downloaded tracks!!! AND ASK MONEY FOR IT!!!
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09-09-2004 07:59 |
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D-Lux
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Originally posted by KoFFiE
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Originally posted by dj eskay
And do you have a problem if dj's (famous dj's) play mix with cd's ? |
That's their choice - no? But usually, skilled DJ's still prefer vinyl, which is still the most flexible thing to work with, however the new pioneer cdplayers aren't doing that bad on that level I heard. When you're at a party, you really don't hear the difference, so what if he turns with CD's or with vinyl? As long as the music's good 
Some people say that they can hear the difference between vinyl & cd's, and they like vinyl more, prolly cause the range of a vinyl record is larger, but it tends to wear down after a while, so after a while they should prefer CD's
On a party itself, the sound usually is so loud that the average person (or even the above-average) won't hear the difference (unless the DJ by accident moves the needle, or the needle breaks 
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Its not only because they are skilled or not... its just the risk of getting there box stolen or not + the dubs wich are lots cheaper to burn on cd´s then to press on vinyl
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Originally posted by KoFFiE
D-Lux, downloading MP3's at home is ok, but sharing them not? So where are you going to download em from? Btw, what's the difference between downloading and listening to a mix like this, and listening to a web-cast you like or a life-set? Oh - maybe one single record was sold for that.. Now it isn't, but for what? Surya doesn't make any money by making this mix, he simply mixed tracks he had downloaded for him at home, opened a sound-editor, and put them all together. Now I download the mixed tracks... What's the difference with downloading the mix, or downloading all the separate tracks for home usage? What's the difference between sharing the one mix or the seperate tracks? If no-one offers the download, my "ok" downloading for home-usage according to you won't happen.
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I understand what u want to say. There is no differance between listening to this mix or to a shoutcast, or even to the radio. Its just the idea that nothing has been payed for this mix, not even 1 track in it. Its all just principles for me. If u wanna mix something, perfect, go ahead, but when u create anything with things u steal from others, i just can´t take that! not in the music industry where it is going bad already.
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Originally posted by KoFFiE
Actually, I like downloading such mixes more, simply cause that's a part of the style, and it is in full interest of the creator that his track is mixed, it isn't the full-quality, complete track, so they can't use it on a party in a mix, using a pc/laptop, final scratch, in extreme even illegal presses (don't know if this happens in the DnB scene, it certainly happens in trance/techno/... styles).[quote]
I like downloading mixes allot, i find new tracks in every mix, I can go buy such tracks out off those mixes. BUT when a track is already released, u first BUY it and afterwards u are able to PLAY it. Its a big differance when its a dubplate. Then u don´t go mixing them into a mix when u don´t have the authorisation from the author! Its all bout respect!
[quote]Originally posted by KoFFiE
Also the buying on CD thing, first of all, I don't like buying stuff on the internet, certainly something like a CD. If I had a bad taste, I could walk into any Free record shop and have my CD immediately. Now you have to look for a specialized CD-shop who probably still has to order the CD you ask for because there simply isn't any demand for the thing you ask for. If you know CD-shops where they have DnB like this on CD, I would be very interested
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I am serious, go to music mania and other bigger alternative cd-shops and u WILL find enough dnb cd´s ... off course not as muxh as your local pop-music distributor but still more then enough IMO (I never buy DnB cd´s tho)
Hope I made myself a lil clearer now
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09-09-2004 08:08 |
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D-Lux
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sorry its in dutch, but this is something I replied to surya in pm. And I thought it was actually very important in the discussion
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als mensen goeie tracks willen horen, er zijn al mixen genoeg, een mix gaat em niet enkel om de tracks, maar ook om de creatie van de dj. En daar wringt het schoentje! Jij creeert iets met gestolen goederen als ik het zo moet zeggen. Doe morgen hetzelfde met dubplate mp3´s, maak een tracklist, en GO PROMOTE en ik zal trots zijn (toch als je de toestemming hebt van die producers) ik zal hem met alle plezier ontdekken en verder interesse tonen in DIE producers (als ze mij bekoren)
snappie? |
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09-09-2004 08:14 |
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KoFFiE 
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| quote: |
Originally posted by D-Lux
I understand what u want to say. There is no differance between listening to this mix or to a shoutcast, or even to the radio. Its just the idea that nothing has been payed for this mix, not even 1 track in it. Its all just principles for me. If u wanna mix something, perfect, go ahead, but when u create anything with things u steal from others, i just can´t take that! not in the music industry where it is going bad already.
...
I like downloading mixes allot, i find new tracks in every mix, I can go buy such tracks out off those mixes. BUT when a track is already released, u first BUY it and afterwards u are able to PLAY it. Its a big differance when its a dubplate. Then u don´t go mixing them into a mix when u don´t have the authorisation from the author! Its all bout respect! |
At the moment when you mix and start doing parties and charge money - I would agree, but now I can't. Also, the author of a track as far as I know doesn't create the track to make money. Ok, it's a nice side-effect when it comes in, but usually, it's still about getting respect and the kick of creating a good track on which the crowd goes wild and liking what you do. If money is the first concern for an author of such track, I can't really call that a piece of art.
Also the music business going bad?? Where do you get that?
I've been talking about this with the owner of t'Center in Aalst (a pritty alternative CD-shop I would say, but no DnB there last time I checked) and he said the whole piracy thing is bullshit. It has always been there, and will always be there. In the 70's/80's there was the tape-deck, in the 90's cdwriters showed up, and now it's MP3's... He didn't note any impact on his sales in a negative way, even on the contrary, and he believed it's better for the smaller artists. MP3's are more accessible, it's like air-time on the radio, he got questions about artists he hardly knew himself, and of which he had to order the CD's - the whole talk was actually started by this point, I asked for a cd he had to order, which he said he had to do increasingly the last few years. Music business going bad? Sorry, it's a fact that they doubled their profits compared to the mid-90's - and then they claim the sell less? Oh yeah - doing bad... sure. The whole "big" piracy problem was created by the industry cause they're afraid that when they say it doesn't affect their sales, or even that they sell more, that they are going to promote it, and then lose money.
A nice example of how the industry works - Maria Carey (not my style, and probably no-one's style here) her contract with Sony records was canceled on her last CD a few years ago, not because it wasn't profitable, but simply because not profitable enough. They still made profit of it, but it wasn't what they had been expecting from it, and to music-business-standards, the sales & success of the CD were below zero, but they still made profit... What does that tell you?
Also, some critics said CD-shops would dissapear because of the MP3 stuff (they also said it with the CDwriters) - and what do you see? Free record shop opened 1/4 of it's current stores in the last 4 years (it's a customer of us). Extrazone is a music store that's also booming... When did started to become mainstream MP3's? Right - the last 4 years... Coincidence? maybe - but I'm not too sure about that. What is a fact that is that for the artists, it hasn't changed a bit how much they make of the sales of a record, which is a sad thing, but all the rest of the industry doesn't seem to suffer very hard from it. Where are the CD-stores going out of business? I don't know any, but I do know a few where there popped up a few new-ones.
I compare it to the movie-industry, which also says it suffers from piracy. This is the same case as above, one with which I am very familiar. 6 years ago, I hardly went to the movies, never bought a DVD or Video, and then I discovered the whole DivX thing. I have about 1600 copied movies at home - yeah, and a lot of loss they made on that-one - sure... I started liking movies a lot more by this, and started going to the movies very frequently (as in 2 to 3 times a week). Last year I also started a collection of (original) DVD's, which has become rather large... So I copied 1600 movies - of which there were maybe 600 where any good, of which I bought most of the top-movies, and the others I'm still looking for to buy them on DVD. The 1000 lesser or crap-movies I would never pay a cent for - I want quality. So did the movie industry made losses on me? Certainly not, without the piracy I would have never gotten into it. You can now say that I'm maybe an exception, but how comes a lot of friends feel exactly the same, and when you meet people that also copy that I'm not surprised that they also started going to the movies frequently? Same thing about smaller artists, the big-ones don't need it, they have the money...
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| I am serious, go to music mania and other bigger alternative cd-shops and u WILL find enough dnb cd´s ... off course not as muxh as your local pop-music distributor but still more then enough IMO (I never buy DnB cd´s tho) |
I still have to encounter the first CD with DnB on it in a record-store here in belgium - so I find this hard to believe, it's not like I don't visit any... When I encounter a CD (and if it's any good), there's a very good chance I'll buy it for in the car, but until now I haven't found any.
PS: I do understand your point, but I don't agree with you completely (that's my right
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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by KoFFiE: 09-09-2004 11:31.
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09-09-2004 11:18 |
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thechronic
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I have bought plenty of dnb cds in shops, but I have to agree only the most famous of producers can be easily found, such as Matrix, Bad Company and Dom & Roland etc...
It's easy to order CDs online BTW and you get a lot more choice.
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09-09-2004 11:45 |
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D-Lux
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| quote: |
Originally posted by KoFFiE
Where are the CD-stores going out of business? I don't know any, but I do know a few where there popped up a few new-ones. |
Good point there. There was a VERY big cd-shop company who went bankroept about 2 or maybe 3 years ago
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Originally posted by KoFFiE
I compare it to the movie-industry, which also says it suffers from piracy. This is the same case as above, one with which I am very familiar. 6 years ago, I hardly went to the movies, never bought a DVD or Video, and then I discovered the whole DivX thing. I have about 1600 copied movies at home - yeah, and a lot of loss they made on that-one - sure... I started liking movies a lot more by this, and started going to the movies very frequently (as in 2 to 3 times a week). Last year I also started a collection of (original) DVD's, which has become rather large... So I copied 1600 movies - of which there were maybe 600 where any good, of which I bought most of the top-movies, and the others I'm still looking for to buy them on DVD. The 1000 lesser or crap-movies I would never pay a cent for - I want quality. So did the movie industry made losses on me? Certainly not, without the piracy I would have never gotten into it. You can now say that I'm maybe an exception, but how comes a lot of friends feel exactly the same, and when you meet people that also copy that I'm not surprised that they also started going to the movies frequently? Same thing about smaller artists, the big-ones don't need it, they have the money...
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That is EXACTLY what I said 
Promote the smaller unknown artist. Not the already gray played tracks buy older and well known artists in the scene 
(--> dubs)
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Originally posted by KoFFiE
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| I am serious, go to music mania and other bigger alternative cd-shops and u WILL find enough dnb cd´s ... off course not as muxh as your local pop-music distributor but still more then enough IMO (I never buy DnB cd´s tho) |
I still have to encounter the first CD with DnB on it in a record-store here in belgium - so I find this hard to believe, it's not like I don't visit any... When I encounter a CD (and if it's any good), there's a very good chance I'll buy it for in the car, but until now I haven't found any.
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Look better, I found dnb cd´s in free record shops, in virgin mega stores, AND in music mania... Dude, look better. If u haven´t found any yet. U REALLY gotta look harder! cause they ARE out there FO SHO (not in the masses as your international pop-artist, but still)
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Originally posted by KoFFiE
PS: I do understand your point, but I don't agree with you completely (that's my right
). |
off course
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09-09-2004 12:16 |
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KoFFiE
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| quote: |
Originally posted by D-Lux
...
Good point there. There was a VERY big cd-shop company who went bankroept about 2 or maybe 3 years ago |
And which-one would that be?
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09-09-2004 12:24 |
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D-Lux
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| quote: |
Originally posted by KoFFiE
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Originally posted by D-Lux
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Good point there. There was a VERY big cd-shop company who went bankroept about 2 or maybe 3 years ago |
And which-one would that be? |
dunno Can´t really remember the name, I kow that there was one in gent where I bought some music when I went to school there (in de veldstraat)
was kinda big news back then. Dunno
btw, fried chicken has closed down! another example (tho it is rather smaler) but I see lots off smaller cd-shops close down cause they can´t concurate with the bigger ones anymore
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09-09-2004 12:48 |
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dj eskay
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Now the fried chicken is down young people have it hard to buy their vinyl .
Its not the reason for mix illegal copy's but love to work with 2 turntables and 2 cd-players together and yes .I use cd's but most of them legal !
Grtz siebe
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09-09-2004 18:58 |
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Dave_Akuma
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Originally posted by D-Lux
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Originally posted by Dave_Akuma
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Originally posted by D-Lux
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Originally posted by I-Witness
who cares, those artiste have money enough... |
U really think these guys are full time producers?
Sorry guys this just pisses me off!!!
I have been into more then one off this like discussions, I always had the support from other ppl except on this board apperantly!...
And when I download mp3 its for sharing them with others, its for exploring some new music wich I eventually will buy (YES HONNESTLY I DO IT!!! )
It used to b different I admit, but not anymore for me. If u really think dnb producers "have enough money" I suggest you go talk to some off them. Maybe u will change your mind.
Sorry to b this harsh but I don´t feel comfortable by this ... |
if you don't feel comfortable with this, then dont download tunes yourself, cuz that's hurting the producers just as much as doing a mix set of downloaded tunes...don't think that you're doing anything different, or 'helping' the producers in any way---by downloading tunes yourself, you are essentially taking money from them too...at least from me, you're not gonna get my support on this becuz you admitted that you download tunes, but you're getting upset at surya ONLY becuz he decided to make a little mix outta those tunes...he's not trying to make money off of this mix, i don't remember having to pay to download this mix, so if you want me to be harsh, he's just doing the same thing you do, which is download tunes...if it seriously bothers you so much, stop downloading tunes and buy em all on vinyl......this time you even admitted to sharing the tunes with friends....you're just as much in the 'wrong' as you're making surya out to be---you downloaded tunes without paying for them, and then you pass these tunes out to your friends, meaning that they aren't paying for them either...so if surya's doing so much harm to the producers, you're doing just as much harm---don't think you're doing anything different...you're guilty of doing the very thing that apparently seems to piss you off so much, so of course no one's gonna take you seriously on this...the truth hurts sometimes (how's that for harsh?) |
U must have said 10 times the same thing there, so I stopped reading after 5 times :p
When I say I download some tunes it mean I download like 10 mp3´s each month (it used to b different I admit) And Most off those I go buy in the shop if i really like them. (exmpl: panacea, prince, beasty boys, dj krush and allot of ninja tunes artists)
All the rekkids I share in a mix, I BOUGHT! Its not cause I go mix on a party, that I get payed for it (only a few times I do), tho I invested LOTS off money in it. So it pisses me off that some "profiteurs" go steal my job when they never payed for ANY trak they play. I am not saying that surya is stealing my job, but I KNOW some ppl who DO mix on party´s with only downloaded tracks!!! AND ASK MONEY FOR IT!!! |
i'm sure alot of people play at parties with downloaded tunes...but what does that have to do with surya's mix? he said himself he originally made it just for himself to listen to in the car, and he was pleased with how it came out so he uploaded it here. and they you came along and got all upset at this. maybe these other dj's are 'stealing your job' cuz they're better dj's than you, did you ever think of that? and if you're not getting paid to play these parties, you cant' really call it a 'job' in the first place... you keep bringing up alot of irrelevant points that have little or nothing to do with the subject at hand. it's just amusing how you admit to downloading tunes, but get upset when other people do...it doesn't matter if you just keep em for yourself or play em out---just by downloading them in the first place, you're in the wrong. end of story. just cuz someone has a cd of tunes they downloaded, how do you know they didn't legally download them from someplace like beatport.com? bet you never thought of that now, did you?
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09-09-2004 19:38 |
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dj eskay
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good point
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09-09-2004 22:00 |
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D-Lux
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Dave_Akuma
i'm sure alot of people play at parties with downloaded tunes...but what does that have to do with surya's mix? |
I am shure in Dnb it isn´t ! The ones who DO should REALLY b ashamed about that! and then ppl claim I destroy the scene by playing for free on smaler party´s 
Again, there is a BIG differance by playing dubs and playing illegal downloaded tunes
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Originally posted by Dave_Akuma
he said himself he originally made it just for himself to listen to in the car, and he was pleased with how it came out so he uploaded it here. and they you came along and got all upset at this.
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true, but putting it online and hosting it on this site make me kinda pissed (specially the hosting on a respected site like this one, it gives a bad example towards others. It could convince others to do the same, and soon every one will b a computer dj behind there desc etc etc do you consider that a good situation for the music industry?
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Originally posted by Dave_Akuma
maybe these other dj's are 'stealing your job' cuz they're better dj's than you, did you ever think of that? and if you're not getting paid to play these parties, you cant' really call it a 'job' in the first place...
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Did I ever call it a job? well, not meant in the sentence of "a working job". They not only steal my "job" dunno how to explain it. I call it "profiteurs" from the music industry. Its the wrong direction, a dj should SUPPORT his music choice, not profit from it!
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Originally posted by Dave_Akuma
you keep bringing up alot of irrelevant points that have little or nothing to do with the subject at hand. it's just amusing how you admit to downloading tunes, but get upset when other people do... |
I don´t get upset when ppl download tunes or mixes, I get upset @ ppl who steal something and create something with that stolen material to profit from it (not only profit in cash to make it clear). Send an email to all promotors today and ask em if u can use your illegal tunes to put a promomix onlne (to promote "the tunes" and "yourself") and await there answer. See what they have to say. I bet they would more easy agree if u said that u payed for the tunes first! Dunno what is so irrelevant about it
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Originally posted by Dave_Akuma
it doesn't matter if you just keep em for yourself or play em out---just by downloading them in the first place, you're in the wrong. end of story. |
WRONG! I price for "holding" illegal material and "using" illegal material is a BIIIIG difference. Lets not even start bout "sharing" or "selling" the stuff.
I know that without sharing there is no downloading btw... (its the same with canabis in Bel I think. U can have, but u can´t use nor sell or buy )
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Originally posted by Dave_Akuma
just cuz someone has a cd of tunes they downloaded, how do you know they didn't legally download them from someplace like beatport.com? bet you never thought of that now, did you? |
hahahaha... talking bout naieve thinking dude
(btw, dunno what is beatport, but I really doubt ik gets used allot or that there is money going to the producer of that track u download from it) BTW: I asked if they where ILLIGALLY downloaded mp3´s... If the mp3´s where legal I should up and I agree with you guys... but its about CREATING A MIX WITH ILLEGALLY DOWNLOADED TUNES! that is a big difference with creating a mix with legal mp3´s (like dub-plattes etc etc)
This discussion is about RESPECT towards your scene, the producers and about CREATING something with STOLEN material
Cheerz
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10-09-2004 10:00 |
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thechronic
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| quote: |
Originally posted by D-Lux
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Originally posted by Dave_Akuma
he said himself he originally made it just for himself to listen to in the car, and he was pleased with how it came out so he uploaded it here. and they you came along and got all upset at this.
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true, but putting it online and hosting it on this site make me kinda pissed (specially the hosting on a respected site like this one, it gives a bad example towards others. It could convince others to do the same, and soon every one will b a computer dj behind there desc etc etc do you consider that a good situation for the music industry?
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I can understand your point of view, but consider my idea about the mixes:
- the mixes here are a meant as a promotion for the artists who made the music as well as the DJs who made the mix. I only allow mixes to be uploaded by active members as a reward for their activity in the forum. The artists and record labels get promotion too, because I always demand a tracklist to be included with the mix (no tracklist - no mix online!). I also ask for the record labels to be included in the tracklist, but I'm not so strict in this because when you want to buy one of the records in a mix it's very easy to find the record label if you know the name of the track and the producer.
- the mixes are a way of promoting my site too, it attracts more visitors who would have otherwise not found out about the site. If people end up on the site because they are looking for DJ mixes, there is the possibility that they look around and maybe even register in the forum, which helps the site grow.
- the legality of hosting DJ mixes is a very hazy subject. When you strictly read copyright law it is not legal (at least not without paying SABAM for it), but it is tolerated because it is such a wonderful promotion engine for the producers and labels. As long as all the tracks are mixed (ie the full tracks can not be downloaded) no record labels seem to think it is a problem. There have not been any lawsuits over the subject yet.
- the two biggest dnb sites in the world (dnb arena and doa) have lots and lots of DJ mixes online, most of which are made by DJs who are releasing tracks themselves. On these sites you find DJ mixes of people such as Baron, Total Science, Pendulum, DJ Suv, Aquasky etc etc etc which is a clear indication that the producers and the record labels don't mind. If these sites stop hosting DJ mixes, I will do the same.
- it is impossible to listen to a DJ mix and hear if a track has been bought or illegally downloaded. If you didn't know Surya and he didn't admit it was a computer mix you wouldn't have known either
By the way, the mixes are very heavy on the server - accounting for over 85% of the bandwidth. They will not stay here forever, as soon as the site becomes noticeably slower because of the high traffic the mixes generate, I will either get rid of them completely, limit them to registered members only, or keep only eg the 5 most recent mixes.
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Originally posted by D-Lux
I don´t get upset when ppl download tunes or mixes, I get upset @ ppl who steal something and create something with that stolen material to profit from it (not only profit in cash to make it clear). Send an email to all promotors today and ask em if u can use your illegal tunes to put a promomix onlne (to promote "the tunes" and "yourself") and await there answer. See what they have to say. I bet they would more easy agree if u said that u payed for the tunes first! Dunno what is so irrelevant about it |
Yes I can expect that they wouldn't be very helpful if you put it that way
Still nobody would ask this, nobody would even mail them asking if they would mind you listening to downloaded tracks privately at home. People who download music are well aware that this is illegal and are not likely to expose themselves to the record labels directly.
Still, if you would generally ask if it was OK with them to host a DJ mix containing some of their tunes they wouldn't mind.
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10-09-2004 10:47 |
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djfreemc
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Registration Date: 25-07-2003
Posts: 1,117
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I combine cd's and vinyl when i spin, but most of my stuff is on (legal) cd's. So yes koffie, u do find them. I have a collection of over 200 cd's & there's like only 5 copies or something in it, so the music industry can't complain about me now, is it
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Now some more facts to think about :
The reason that big chain of cdstores (wasn't it called superclub or something?) D-lux mentioned went out of business, was missmanagement and buying "empty" stocks of other companies & stuff, not because of the lack of sales.
The sales of LEGAL download sites such as apple music store has increased like hell since they first popped up, so a lot of people are interested in buying their music legally.
The music industry as a whole, meaning not only cd/record/musicdvd sales but also concerts, parties,... has never been doing better than the last few years. The reason: through downloading & the internet in general music has become much more popular again.
In my humble opinion every dj should be able to choose which equipment he likes working with best. Wether it be decks, cd-players or a pc. Just like one would choose a technics or pioneer over another brand because u find it the best/easiest/most comfortable to work with.
And last but not least: IMO DJ's shouldn't be afraid of their dj job because of pc mixes. There's just no way someone without dj'ing experience could do it live @ a party, and next to having fun urself that is the main thing about dj'ing: parties.
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The mysteries of the distorted snare...
Can't win if u don't play
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10-09-2004 11:06 |
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