Mixing with CD's or MP3's |
D-Lux
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edit by thechronic: this is split off a thread about Surya's latest mix, this is an interesting discussion but was off topic in the other thread
quote: |
Originally posted by Surya
Well, I don't even have turntables anymore
This is the mix section, so it belongs here, since it IS a mix
But this is also the DJ booth, so it doesn't really belong here... But where does it belong then?
Mixed it in Audition...
But if you don't know I can't mix, you might not notice it? I tried making it sound as natural as possible |
its not about the sound, it is about the idea to mix illegal downloaded mp3´s together and put it online. I just can´t take that. Its not that I don´t download illigal mp3´s... I just keep em for myself and don´t go mixing em in to share with others.
Its just not fair to the producers imo... There are already enough mixes from dj´s who put effort and lots of money in there hobey´s ... Now u don´t need to go taking that previlige when u go rippin' some of it from the i-net...
PS: Sorry to be harsh in this way - just can´t take this
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07-09-2004 10:15 |
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I-Witness
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who cares, those artiste have money enough...
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07-09-2004 17:32 |
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Dave_Akuma
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plus he's not trying to make money off this mix...i could understand if he was selling these as mixed cd's, but he's not, so what's the problem (especially since you admitted to 'illegally downloading' tunes yourself)?
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07-09-2004 19:47 |
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suvcycle
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plus we can all sit down , listen and enjoy the music
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some just run from the sound
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07-09-2004 20:11 |
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D-Lux
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quote: |
Originally posted by I-Witness
who cares, those artiste have money enough... |
U really think these guys are full time producers?
Sorry guys this just pisses me off!!!
I have been into more then one off this like discussions, I always had the support from other ppl except on this board apperantly!...
And when I download mp3 its for sharing them with others, its for exploring some new music wich I eventually will buy (YES HONNESTLY I DO IT!!! )
It used to b different I admit, but not anymore for me. If u really think dnb producers "have enough money" I suggest you go talk to some off them. Maybe u will change your mind.
Sorry to b this harsh but I don´t feel comfortable by this ...
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08-09-2004 09:08 |
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dj eskay
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And do you have a problem if dj's (famous dj's) play mix with cd's ?
__ Stepping bass
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08-09-2004 16:47 |
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D-Lux
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quote: |
Originally posted by dj eskay
And do you have a problem if dj's (famous dj's) play mix with cd's ? |
Yes and no... It depends. They GET there most off there vinyl for free anyway (the most famous ones) And they bought most off those tunes before (on vinyl) + they also mostly play the tunes from thereselves or there mates (I think dylan/robyn/tech itch/loxy/ink ... enough examples to give)
If a dj would become famous from mixing with illegaly downloaded mp3´s I think that would b THE thing to make me stop dj'ing or even try to ...
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08-09-2004 17:10 |
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D-Lux
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quote: |
Originally posted by KoFFiE
D-Lux - so where do I buy DnB on cd? I don't have a turntable, and am not planning to buy one. DnB is smth you hardly find on cd in record stores, most of the mp3's you find are vinyl-ripped or even published in mp3.
CD is a mass-media, too expensive to release dnb on for the relatively small public it has (at least in belgium), and I'm not gonna buy a vinyl record just so I can legally play an mp3... At the moment when I see some CD of an artist I like - I usually buy it, the last time I did was already a while ago... |
Where you can buy cd´s... OMG you really must look for another music shop. There are plenty of cd´s sold in any record shop, and on the i-net. + there are plenty of dj-mixes on the i-net (that is the most I listen to)
And when i was talking "buying music" i especially meant "other then DnB" cause I buy most DnB on vinyl
U can download as many mp3´s as you want to listen to at home... But spreading them further by a mix like this is wrong imo... just like building a webspace where u share that is also wrong.
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08-09-2004 17:15 |
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D-Lux
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quote: |
Originally posted by I-Witness
what's wrong with mixing with computer withoiut buyin the recs? i should be mad because all my money is goin to vinyl... but i think : people hear the trax now and the ones that are spinning and likr it maybe gonna buy it because of this mix.... |
You should b mad cause all your money goes to people that MADE something for YOU ??? MUSIC is ART!!! People put there life and soul out for music!!! if u can´t even pay a little bit off money (per rekkid) to be legal to play that rekkid, you better get yourself one off those freefm radio thingies where u listen to music that others present to you.
If you wanna make other people discover your music taste, u BUY that music cause it should DESERVE that little money from you. They will then discover that music and also might buy it...
Or maybe next time you ask money to every producer to promote there music ...
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08-09-2004 17:22 |
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I-Witness
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no no i'm not mad because of the money, otherwise i wouldn't buy them... i COULD BE mad cause some people just download them and i pay 4 it, that's what i meant
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08-09-2004 17:32 |
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Dave_Akuma
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quote: |
Originally posted by D-Lux
quote: |
Originally posted by I-Witness
who cares, those artiste have money enough... |
U really think these guys are full time producers?
Sorry guys this just pisses me off!!!
I have been into more then one off this like discussions, I always had the support from other ppl except on this board apperantly!...
And when I download mp3 its for sharing them with others, its for exploring some new music wich I eventually will buy (YES HONNESTLY I DO IT!!! )
It used to b different I admit, but not anymore for me. If u really think dnb producers "have enough money" I suggest you go talk to some off them. Maybe u will change your mind.
Sorry to b this harsh but I don´t feel comfortable by this ... |
if you don't feel comfortable with this, then dont download tunes yourself, cuz that's hurting the producers just as much as doing a mix set of downloaded tunes...don't think that you're doing anything different, or 'helping' the producers in any way---by downloading tunes yourself, you are essentially taking money from them too...at least from me, you're not gonna get my support on this becuz you admitted that you download tunes, but you're getting upset at surya ONLY becuz he decided to make a little mix outta those tunes...he's not trying to make money off of this mix, i don't remember having to pay to download this mix, so if you want me to be harsh, he's just doing the same thing you do, which is download tunes...if it seriously bothers you so much, stop downloading tunes and buy em all on vinyl......this time you even admitted to sharing the tunes with friends....you're just as much in the 'wrong' as you're making surya out to be---you downloaded tunes without paying for them, and then you pass these tunes out to your friends, meaning that they aren't paying for them either...so if surya's doing so much harm to the producers, you're doing just as much harm---don't think you're doing anything different...you're guilty of doing the very thing that apparently seems to piss you off so much, so of course no one's gonna take you seriously on this...the truth hurts sometimes (how's that for harsh?)
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08-09-2004 17:40 |
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KoFFiE
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quote: |
Originally posted by dj eskay
And do you have a problem if dj's (famous dj's) play mix with cd's ? |
That's their choice - no? But usually, skilled DJ's still prefer vinyl, which is still the most flexible thing to work with, however the new pioneer cdplayers aren't doing that bad on that level I heard. When you're at a party, you really don't hear the difference, so what if he turns with CD's or with vinyl? As long as the music's good
Some people say that they can hear the difference between vinyl & cd's, and they like vinyl more, prolly cause the range of a vinyl record is larger, but it tends to wear down after a while, so after a while they should prefer CD's
On a party itself, the sound usually is so loud that the average person (or even the above-average) won't hear the difference (unless the DJ by accident moves the needle, or the needle breaks
)
Vinyls are cheaper for low-volume releases (up to 3000 records more or less). For higher volume, CD's are more interesting because it has a rather large fixed cost (making the glass mall for the CD-stickers). The cd's itself are dirt-cheap if no data has to be put on the stickers, 45 Eurocent was the last thing I heard, including a jewel-case and a 2-color print for a simple booklet... You have to count however that making the glass mall costs about 600/700eur if you look real good, but if you don't, you easily find cd-pressing firms that charge over 1000eur.
That's the main reason why all dance-music is still so vinyl-oriented, they don't expect end-users to buy it, only dj's (or wannabe's) are expected to buy, and low-volumes are cheaper in vinyl. The development of things like the new Pioneer cd-player would have been pushed a lot harder if this hadn't been the case, and we would have had this thing for years if CD's would also be cheap in low-volumes (which it is becoming, a few years ago the glass mall stil costed about 2000eur)
D-Lux, downloading MP3's at home is ok, but sharing them not? So where are you going to download em from? Btw, what's the difference between downloading and listening to a mix like this, and listening to a web-cast you like or a life-set? Oh - maybe one single record was sold for that.. Now it isn't, but for what? Surya doesn't make any money by making this mix, he simply mixed tracks he had downloaded for him at home, opened a sound-editor, and put them all together. Now I download the mixed tracks... What's the difference with downloading the mix, or downloading all the separate tracks for home usage? What's the difference between sharing the one mix or the seperate tracks? If no-one offers the download, my "ok" downloading for home-usage according to you won't happen.
Actually, I like downloading such mixes more, simply cause that's a part of the style, and it is in full interest of the creator that his track is mixed, it isn't the full-quality, complete track, so they can't use it on a party in a mix, using a pc/laptop, final scratch, in extreme even illegal presses (don't know if this happens in the DnB scene, it certainly happens in trance/techno/... styles).
Also the buying on CD thing, first of all, I don't like buying stuff on the internet, certainly something like a CD. If I had a bad taste, I could walk into any Free record shop and have my CD immediately. Now you have to look for a specialized CD-shop who probably still has to order the CD you ask for because there simply isn't any demand for the thing you ask for. If you know CD-shops where they have DnB like this on CD, I would be very interested
__ Sleep is a poor substitute for coffee
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by KoFFiE: 08-09-2004 17:49.
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08-09-2004 17:44 |
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Milis
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Registration Date: 05-09-2004
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Well actually, I have been in a lot of record stores and I must honestly say...there are almost NO drum n bass CD's. None in most of the stores.(live in belgium) And like Koffie
when I do see a cd I buy it. I don't have turntables either. I'm not going to buy a set just so i can listen drum n bass. That would be pretty stupid. And again to quote Koffie, Drum n bass has a small public in Belgium. Releasing it on Cd's would be crazy especially for a beginning DJ.
But I understand your opinion D-Lux
Surya...as for your mix. I've had it 2 days now. And i've played it 5 times. (usually study with music and had a lot of study to do
)
Real good work. I love the trancy tunes, great tracklist selection
This man knows his job..thats for sure
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08-09-2004 17:46 |
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Milis
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quote: |
Originally posted by KoFFiE
quote: |
Originally posted by dj eskay
And do you have a problem if dj's (famous dj's) play mix with cd's ? |
That's their choice - no? But usually, skilled DJ's still prefer vinyl, which is still the most flexible thing to work with, however the new pioneer cdplayers aren't doing that bad on that level I heard. When you're at a party, you really don't hear the difference, so what if he turns with CD's or with vinyl? As long as the music's good
Some people say that they can hear the difference between vinyl & cd's, and they like vinyl more, prolly cause the range of a vinyl record is larger, but it tends to wear down after a while, so after a while they should prefer CD's
On a party itself, the sound usually is so loud that the average person (or even the above-average) won't hear the difference (unless the DJ by accident moves the needle, or the needle breaks
)
Vinyls are cheaper for low-volume releases (up to 3000 records more or less). For higher volume, CD's are more interesting because it has a rather large fixed cost (making the glass mall for the CD-stickers). The cd's itself are dirt-cheap if no data has to be put on the stickers, 45 Eurocent was the last thing I heard, including a jewel-case and a 2-color print for a simple booklet... You have to count however that making the glass mall costs about 600/700eur if you look real good, but if you don't, you easily find cd-pressing firms that charge over 1000eur.
That's the main reason why all dance-music is still so vinyl-oriented, they don't expect end-users to buy it, only dj's (or wannabe's) are expected to buy, and low-volumes are cheaper in vinyl. The development of things like the new Pioneer cd-player would have been pushed a lot harder if this hadn't been the case, and we would have had this thing for years if CD's would also be cheap in low-volumes (which it is becoming, a few years ago the glass mall stil costed about 2000eur)
D-Lux, downloading MP3's at home is ok, but sharing them not? So where are you going to download em from? Btw, what's the difference between downloading and listening to a mix like this, and listening to a web-cast you like or a life-set? Oh - maybe one single record was sold for that.. Now it isn't, but for what? Surya doesn't make any money by making this mix, he simply mixed tracks he had downloaded for him at home, opened a sound-editor, and put them all together. Now I download the mixed tracks... What's the difference with downloading the mix, or downloading all the separate tracks for home usage? What's the difference between sharing the one mix or the seperate tracks? If no-one offers the download, my "ok" downloading for home-usage according to you won't happen.
Actually, I like downloading such mixes more, simply cause that's a part of the style, and it is in full interest of the creator that his track is mixed, it isn't the full-quality, complete track, so they can't use it on a party in a mix, using a pc/laptop, final scratch, in extreme even illegal presses (don't know if this happens in the DnB scene, it certainly happens in trance/techno/... styles).
Also the buying on CD thing, first of all, I don't like buying stuff on the internet, certainly something like a CD. If I had a bad taste, I could walk into any Free record shop and have my CD immediately. Now you have to look for a specialized CD-shop who probably still has to order the CD you ask for because there simply isn't any demand for the thing you ask for. If you know CD-shops where they have DnB like this on CD, I would be very interested
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Couldn't have said it any better
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08-09-2004 17:57 |
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Dave_Akuma
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L.A. Abstract is shifting their focus towards releasing cd's instead of focusing so much on vinyl...when it comes down to it, vinyl's more expensive than cd's regardless of how many you order---and besides that, they're targeting the majority of dnb fans who aren't djs, and don't ever plan on being a dj, but would still like to listen to the tunes that the dj's have access to (in other words people just like all of you)...Gain and G2 are going digital as well as doing vinyl, and alot of new sites like beatport.com are popping up everyday...hopefully more labels will open their eyes and will start marketing to the majority instead of just to the dj's...
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08-09-2004 18:40 |
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KoFFiE
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quote: |
Originally posted by Dave_Akuma
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hopefully more labels will open their eyes and will start marketing to the majority instead of just to the dj's... |
I'd rather have it like it's now mostly in belgium, no real commercial push, that tends to screw the genre in the end, I don't like a commercial push on something that is supposed to be artistic. I am fully aware that the artists have to fight hard to be recognized, and the only way to be recognized in the music industry is by selling records, it's a bit controversial I guess and in the end inevitable I'm afraid. I really think the artists deserve it, but in the long run...
Anyway - we're not that far here, so no worries (yet) though you already see that it's also growing here rapidly. I.e. I really didn't expect that much people on the Step :: One party this year, having been there the year before... I really don't mind giving money for a good record, but I'd still rather go to a party where the artist performs in some way so I'm sure he gets an immediate "return-on-investement"
Once CD-production starts, you need to have a big distributor, and high-volume production is dirt-cheap. A lot of "layers" are added in the selling-process, and eventually, the artist ends up with what - a few % of the total sales? Does that sound fair & right to you? Some people claim that the music-industry needs to take such big amounts of the profit to be able to invest in "new talents". 2 feet on the ground now - how many big music companies (Sony, BMI, ...) invest in new styles? No, the small labels do the experimental work, take the risks, only a few actually make it - and they do all that with a passion, fighting for something they create - and after X years, when it becomes popular, they usually get bought out by one of the big-bucks companies, or become one. There are only a very few that survive w/o this.
The investing in new talents is bs... Take the tv-show "Idool", yet another way to find talents without losing any money, and it is'nt the only-one, but it sure is the only way even totally untalented people that they might have given a shot (or even totally not) bring in some serious bucks. The whole music-industry is a maffia, and once you become big, they'll get you and make sure you sell. I've seen extremely bad records being made simply because they had the backing of 2 music-channels on TV (that would be JimTV & TMF) Not by accident the producer has connections there (so do I btw, but not that solid) and in one of the "big companies".
Anyway, vinyl is still cheaper in low-volumes, at least here in Belgium it is, I guess that could be explained by the music-producing history here, like DnB grew in the UK, acid/techno/club-house grew (and got commercialized) for a large part here (I'm talking about Europe now), starting mid-80's, so there are still a few vinyl-pressing companies, or companies that do both because they still had requests to produce it. It simply connected with the beginning of the CD-era/ending of LP-era, there wasn't a real gap, no new equipment has to be bought. When DJ'ing became more popular, in a lot of other countries, companies suddenly had to invest again in vinyl-presses, or go abroad for production to companies that still had the equipment (most of them switched early 90's to 100% cd-manufacturing) or had done the "new" investment. This offcourse would make it more expensive, not 100% sure that that is the reason, but it doesn't sound too strange to me.
I might not be a producer, artist or in any way connected to making music, but I do have some serious contacts in the older house-scene, labels, ... I do know how "the industry" works (and I don't like it
)
__ Sleep is a poor substitute for coffee
This post has been edited 5 time(s), it was last edited by KoFFiE: 08-09-2004 20:14.
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08-09-2004 20:08 |
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Surya
The Robot
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quote: |
Originally posted by D-Lux
U can download as many mp3´s as you want to listen to at home... But spreading them further by a mix like this is wrong imo... just like building a webspace where u share that is also wrong. |
Huh? It's not like you can hear the complete thing, and it's not like people don't have to buy the real thing to anymore to go play it on parties and stuff... It's just a frekkin mix for people to listen to, nothing more...
And no, they don't make a living of producing all these nice plates, they only survive if they can do enough gigs...
__ "In dnb you should make people jump not swim"
- Pieter Frenssen 2004
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08-09-2004 20:35 |
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thechronic
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I think this is a very interesting topic, one I've expected for some time now.
The company I work at also rents out DJ gear to big parties (I mean the really big ones with over 15000 people, and festivals etc). I've seen an evolution happening in 3 years time from vinyl-only to vinyl supported with one CD player and now it regularly happens that DJ's play with CD's alone.
Some people will not agree with this, but imo CD players like the Pioneer CDJ-1000 mkII can replace vinyl completely if you get to know them. They have many interesting functions which can enhance your mixing (such as instant starts at several places in a song so you can skip parts, you can change the tempo without changing the pitch, you can make seamless loops, can play backwards, do extreme pitching, store loop and start points on a memory card, ...) and they are very user friendly, giving a real vinyl feeling to playing CDs. The sound quality gets worse when you start pitching, but this is already much better than the mkI, and will improve more in coming versions.
Ofcourse it is tempting to use copied or even downloaded tracks when you spin CDs, I've seen the two sides of it: DJs who have only pressed CDs, and DJ's who only have CD-Rs. They usually claim that they have the original CDs at home but don't want to risk them getting damaged or stolen
IMO if you spin at a party using CDs you should only spin tracks you have actually bought. After all, you are getting paid to spin and you are doing that on the hard working backs of the producers.
Online mixes is a totally different thing. This is a type of promotion for music which works well if a tracklist is supplied. I think people really do buy records after hearing them in an online mix (I know I have!!) so I don't think many producers would object to it. It gets your name out in public after all, and since the tracks are mixed you don't have the entire track.
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08-09-2004 22:24 |
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