for God sake this has annoyed me a lot before deciding to post here.
so i wonder how to get strong, punchy kicks and snares, but with a deep sub beneath?
i get the big kicks and snares, the big bass, no problems here, but when trying to put them all together the sub drowns the kick, esp. if i add a final compressor. if i lower the bass it becomes weak.
so what am i missing?
ps. i know the general rule of not using deep kicks with deep basses, but again some producer break that rule and they have the kicks and subs strong to ruin down a house.
any tips are both enjoyed and welcomed! thank you!
You have obvious problem of frequency interference.
1. Solo each instrument
2. Analyze it through FFT or sonogram to see what frequency field covers each of the instruments (I guess you already know how to use the analyzer tool)
3. Make snapshot of each frequency spectrum of the instruments.
4. Find a way to blend those snapshots if they are pictures or whatever (I usually work that way, otherwise I would have to remember or write down everything).
5. EQ is next(add the EQ as an insert before the compressor). When you will notice in the blended representation of the frequency spectrum two different instruments at similar frequency field that overlap, implement subtle thinking and hearing to keep the timbre of the instrument that you will apply EQing (cut the area that overlaps with the other one or two that sit on the one or the other side of the EQed instrument accordingly), so you will not loose any vital recognition of the EQed instrument.(I guess you already know how to use Equalizer properly. Use parametric.).
6. To have good attack or punch for the instruments, experiment with fast attack parameter on the compressor device (25-30 ms), the release parameter to be set at long perception, the ratio to be high (but not as limiter), set the threshold to catch the signal from 2x the loudness down of the instrument (if the sound is -5dbFS you set the threshold at -10dbFS) and then slowly return it as you are satisfied.
This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by dawm_rule: 15-04-2010 16:49.
alternativley... turn your master volume right down briefly, adjust your low frequences accordingly, and then your beats after. doing this at high volume leads to either a muffled sound or alot of compression i find. works for me...
Originally posted by dawm_rule
You have obvious problem of frequency interference.
1. Solo each instrument
2. Analyze it through FFT or sonogram to see what frequency field covers each of the instruments (I guess you already know how to use the analyzer tool)
3. Make snapshot of each frequency spectrum of the instruments.
4. Find a way to blend those snapshots if they are pictures or whatever (I usually work that way, otherwise I would have to remember or write down everything).
5. EQ is next(add the EQ as an insert before the compressor). When you will notice in the blended representation of the frequency spectrum two different instruments at similar frequency field that overlap, implement subtle thinking and hearing to keep the timbre of the instrument that you will apply EQing (cut the area that overlaps with the other one or two that sit on the one or the other side of the EQed instrument accordingly), so you will not loose any vital recognition of the EQed instrument.(I guess you already know how to use Equalizer properly. Use parametric.).
6. To have good attack or punch for the instruments, experiment with fast attack parameter on the compressor device (25-30 ms), the release parameter to be set at long perception, the ratio to be high (but not as limiter), set the threshold to catch the signal from 2x the loudness down of the instrument (if the sound is -5dbFS you set the threshold at -10dbFS) and then slowly return it as you are satisfied.
This and try to avoid compressors at the master channel, if you don't know how to work with them (especially multiband ones as they tend to change the sound scape way more dynamically than a single compressor).
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if you really want that low sub bass underneath there
just cut down all freq higher than your kicks
make sure your kicks come punching true (by eq'ing etc)
and your snare shouldnt be a prob as most freq, is above your lowest point of kick
usually have my kicks around 95 hz
yes, without a compressor on the master the kick and sub sit quite nice. but after i beefed the kick with a couple of compressors and parallel compression, when i added the final compressor on the master the kick was cutting through the sub. it was noticeable.
Originally posted by KILLER_FAN
Thanks for the advices fellaz.
after i beefed the kick with a couple of compressors and parallel compression, when i added the final compressor on the master the kick was cutting through the sub. it was noticeable.
Maybe you're overdoing it on the compression? Especially on lower levels it's easy to over compress beats and make everything really bland and undynamic. Essentially compressors will do just that, put louder things quieter and quiet things louder. If something is louder than other, the loud will dominate and the quiet will be even quieter.
quieter than loud that is quiet than the louder... quiet...wait...wat?
limiter on the drums to push the level up but clip gently.
filter out all sub frequencies that the sub bass hits. (use voxengo span maybe by holding down Ctrl key)...
then put some slight attack of 30ms on the sub bass... the attack will automatically make the sub bass FEEL louder all the way through the notes, even though it's only the hit that's quite loud.
then if you can get your hands on one, a good linear multiband compressor over the lot.
Use a generous amount of compresion across all bandwidths, and push the range of sub-bass up so it's tight.
That's how you get big sub bass with loud drums that don't interfere with each other.
Originally posted by Age Break
if you really want that low sub bass underneath there
just cut down all freq higher than your kicks
make sure your kicks come punching true (by eq'ing etc)
and your snare shouldnt be a prob as most freq, is above your lowest point of kick
usually have my kicks around 95 hz
listen up yo, get yourself a parametric EQ on the sub-bass. Play the bass and kicks together. Now, on the EQ there should be (well, according to Reason anyway) parameters for the frequency, Q, and gain. Got that? Good.
Now select the highest Q you can get, and put the gain up to the max (or near the max). You should see a high peak of small width on the EQ now. [Remember this method as it is pretty useful, often you'll find that it is a certain small band of frequencies that cause problems.]
Anyway, play the drums and the bass together. Or just the kicks and bass. While it is playing, move the 'frequency' rotary on the EQ until you find that the bass drowns out the kicks (really) badly/the sound is muffled. Once you've found that, just reduce the gain on the EQ.
If the problem still persists, then just add another parametric EQ and repeat the process. . . . .
Here's what I do. Put an eq on the kick. roll off just under 100hz with a sharp q so it cuts off everything below that.. boost around 100hz to give it a real punch. For the bass roll off so it cuts off everything about 100hz. each kick and bass needs it's own certain eqing but thats a start point.
This and try to avoid compressors at the master channel, if you don't know how to work with them (especially multiband ones as they tend to change the sound scape way more dynamically than a single compressor).
Id have thought you'd need a compresser on the master channel unless you are going to get it mastered/ have a mastering suite yourself. otherwise the whole mix will just sound thin and quiet.
also the 3 main techniques i use are:
.EQ notching, looking at the frequency where the bass drum hits and notching that out of the sub bass
.Sidechaining - ducking the volume of the sub bass when the kick hits
.another idea i mess round with it putting the sub and the kick into 1 channel and putting a multiband compresser on it to make sure the sub shines through
i am recently experimenting with all 3 going on at once with the sidechaining on the dry/wet control of the equaliser with the notch taken out... and it works pretty well if i say so myself.
".Sidechaining - ducking the volume of the sub bass when the kick hits"
Side chaining on sub bass doesn't sound like a good idea to me. If it ducks with the kick then you're not going to have a constant smooth bass. I just prefer eqing so the kick and bass work together.
