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Halph-Price 
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Originally posted by cynik
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| cynicism came because the whole society imploded. it's not because of something good it came about, it was like the great depression. there was no other choice, then not have. so they made poverty a spiritual thing. |
its not a spiritual thing
every radical movement, thinking, phylosphy started BECAUSE there was a problem. so dont go explaining things which are obvious. that goes for a number of statements, dont go wasting energy going into detail of how/why for the sake of me understanding, its quite alright if youre doing for the others.
following the notion, I think all of mankind is in such a huge depression atm, that it has picked up most of bad things ever happened, and did not evlolve
for whatever reason bad things happen, they dont ever go away, just escalate and show elsewhere, only bigger, in another time. its how bad it is
not going to comment your wild assumptions such as mentioning humanism. cynicism is more misanthrope than that |
OOOOOOOOOH nevermind, you're talking about modern cynicism. sorry, that's why my comment before probably seemed so random. i though ti made it clear, i was talking about ancient roman cynics. these are different from each other.
SO this all revolves around the human condition, and i understand why you brought this up in the first place. the symptom of the human condition of suffering comes not from desire of wealth and fame. it will not be resolved by going back to nature. we cannot unlearn and we cannot go back.
the human that first became self aware would have suffered from the start. like adam and eve when they first ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, their first thoughts was their nakedness and how they felt ashamed. giref that did not come desire of wealth or fame. we can have grief from just wanting basic needs. it's our desires we got from being able to make judgments of good and bad. ironicly, it's that ability that makes us think other things are good and bad. it's just inherent, that we think of everything as better or worst. without this ability we wouldn't worry about anything as much. not if we didn't want wealth, but just didn't want to want in the first place. i'll always want to breath and eat and sleep. i'll always have unhappiness if these are not fulfilled.
we know have this aibility to judge good and bad. to make appraisals is what our intelligence gave us, and how we grow. if not then we'd still use stone wheels. we cannot lose this ability, and go back into nature. we know that is not better. it's this ability to appraise that made us such a king of evolution. we can choose what we need, not just accept life as it is. this does bring more stress in our life, but if stress is a measure if something si virtue or vice is not a good system to judge on.
we cannot go back to nature the same as we cannot go back to our childhood, and we cannot go back to the womb. these are stages in our life that we were happier in, but this does not mean it is good and virtuous. it was just a less stressful time. our time in nature was like the time in the womb. the moment we became self aware was our birth. it's when we left mother nature. we still will be apart of nature, no matter what. it's only by transcending the human condition do we ever alleviate this grief, but it's always temporary.
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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Halph-Price: 16-06-2009 19:01.
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16-06-2009 18:29 |
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demure
mastication fo de nation
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i am cleverbot, are you a bot? 
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16-06-2009 18:31 |
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Halph-Price
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16-06-2009 19:02 |
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cynik
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If we were to accept that way of thinking, accepting all the bad things as inevitable, as how humanity is, it cannot go back etc etc. that would lead into even more degradation of existence, more destroying of our mother earth, more lessening the value of life. by that I dont mean only human. earth is our homeland, but is also of our fellow earthlings, animals and plants
we must accept cynicism as a clutch. ok we know we cant really go 100% back into being in a horde, and its not about "coming back" to anything really, as you said, we are inevitably a part of nature. but we must know all the time, repeat who we are, we really are just "intelligent" animals and our bond with the nature is essential, to not lessen the importance of that and continue the destruction, but to try and work more on the bond itself, to work in favor of the weaker earthlings, since it is our mutual home after all
edited for an example:
if you get lost in the woods, and hear wolves howling, is it going to matter how much money you have on you, or in the bank, or how fancy is the car parked in your garage?
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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by cynik: 16-06-2009 20:46.
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16-06-2009 20:33 |
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Saikonutta
not helpful ^^
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
If you ask a computer a question, this defines their intelligence. If you ask a computer to describe a picture, this defines their recognition. If you ask them to summarize a book, this defines their comprehension.
None of these steps prove a consciousness. It merely defines limitations. Does limitations define consciousness? Does intelligence, recognition, or comprehension matter, for consciousness? |
Computers don't have the ability to recognize or comprehend, it just does what we program it has to do: do logics (process) with input/variables. It will never have the 'consciousness' of recognizing or comprehending.
It's just a "series of switches", applying logics with the help of embedded logics & memory very fast, nothing more...
conciousness defines limitations, intelligence, recognition and comprehension... etc
not the other way
imo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_gate
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Saikonutta: 16-06-2009 21:10.
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16-06-2009 20:51 |
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Halph-Price
Zombie Algorithm
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Originally posted by Saikonutta
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
If you ask a computer a question, this defines their intelligence. If you ask a computer to describe a picture, this defines their recognition. If you ask them to summarize a book, this defines their comprehension.
None of these steps prove a consciousness. It merely defines limitations. Does limitations define consciousness? Does intelligence, recognition, or comprehension matter, for consciousness? |
Computers don't have the ability to recognize or comprehend, it just does what we program it has to do: do logics (process) with input/variables. It will never have the 'consciousness' of recognizing or comprehending.
It's just a "series of switches", applying logics with the help of embedded logics & memory very fast, nothing more...
conciousness defines limitations, intelligence, recognition and comprehension... etc
not the other way
imo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_gate |
This is the point of computer do what we tell them. Computers mimic humans. Memory stored with electricity, math done by addition and subtraction. These computers are becoming closer and closer to the state humans are in. They make image recognition to dissaued computer bots from spamming, but then they make better computers to recognized, patterns letters numbers, colors shapes!
Now we made computers modeled after us. We have consciousnesses, how long until they have it as well. At one time, flying machines, and lunar landings were Sci-Fi. We'll be able to define, and design, and IMPROVE consciousness. The limitations could be removed.
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16-06-2009 22:25 |
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cynik
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17-06-2009 00:10 |
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Saikonutta
not helpful ^^
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You are limited to wath you think and believe imo, so "extending" consciousness with "computers" would not extend anything of my consciousness. but only practical possibilities('extending' memory, 'better' view, or wotever) (like a computer... )
I certainly don't think it would be possible to "upgrade" your consciousness (your personality, "your way" of thinking, ...) Because that's just a rule (and limit) in nature: every entity is unique and total together, if you disbalance this harmony it is doomed to fail...
so in imo it wouldn't be 'usefull' to extend your fysical capabilities with such 'computers' I think you would change into a "programmed-vulnerable-to-logic-error-timebomb"
Your perception of reality would change. And why would you do that, unless you really know what you are doing? Is reality not good enough? If you think so, than I think it's very dangerous. You would generate your 'own' (computer-controlled) reality, and you'd not experience real reality. There's the danger to forget you're in a virtual world, and eventually live completely different. Nature is our only common embedded reality, if you fuck that up, than you're not considered 'human' imo, but you became target of technology and your own vanity. Living in harmony with nature is the only reality we can effectively experience and is not susceptive to human error.
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17-06-2009 00:32 |
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cynik
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he is saying is leading us into assimilation with the machines. a fucking borg!
HE is the real bot here. he even once admitted that he shares his login password and username with 15 other people
beware of the bot named Halph-Price he will infiltrate your computer and retrieve your bank account data 
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https://soundcloud.com/tsai-vidro-voves
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17-06-2009 00:54 |
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Halph-Price
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when i was thinking of expanding consciousnesses i did not mean a humans. i ment an artificial one. if you can make it remember and recall and sort information, then you can improve it. all technology is just making an artificial human extension. but the n we get to a point that it's not an extension, but an innovation. walking stick, horse back, horse cart, car, plane, rocketship... it just escalates.
Stephen Hawkin says in his book Brief history of time, that humans may never figure out how a brain works. he predicts it will be a computer we create that will create another computer that will be able to understand our minds. there are computers AI that have personalities. that sometimes they will respond in jest, or anger, or curiosity. this is not something unique to humans.
to think that self-awarness is uniquly human is to deny the fact that we strive to replicate, and improve humanity. a robot is an extention of a human. just like words are extention of our thought. like a shovel an extention of our body. it's all technology.
self-awareness is even different then personality. we can emulate personality in machines. but for a machine to emulate self-awareness. . .
how do you gauge that?
how do you gauge self-awareness? this was my original question. how do you tell if someone else is self-aware as opposed to high sense of instinct or programming. how are we that different then a computer? anything you can do can be done by a machine, if not better, faster, and for longer.
the only exception that comes to mind, is ART. but even music, for example, is math in a practical form. is art what seperates us?
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17-06-2009 08:48 |
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Halph-Price
Zombie Algorithm
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| quote: |
Originally posted by cynik
If we were to accept that way of thinking, accepting all the bad things as inevitable, as how humanity is, it cannot go back etc etc. that would lead into even more degradation of existence, more destroying of our mother earth, more lessening the value of life. by that I dont mean only human. earth is our homeland, but is also of our fellow earthlings, animals and plants
we must accept cynicism as a clutch. ok we know we cant really go 100% back into being in a horde, and its not about "coming back" to anything really, as you said, we are inevitably a part of nature. but we must know all the time, repeat who we are, we really are just "intelligent" animals and our bond with the nature is essential, to not lessen the importance of that and continue the destruction, but to try and work more on the bond itself, to work in favor of the weaker earthlings, since it is our mutual home after all
edited for an example:
if you get lost in the woods, and hear wolves howling, is it going to matter how much money you have on you, or in the bank, or how fancy is the car parked in your garage? |
i do apologize i had some trouble understanding this a bit is all... i didn't ignore this.
where to start on this... first off, life is degrading. this is a basic of physics. entropy is a condition that gives evidence to the direction of time. chaos theory it's also called. it's a rule of life. life isn't fair, get over it. we are destroying mother earth, and it seems for profit, but it's not profitable to destroy the entire planet. not yet at least (until we need off world colonists)
again, that bond with nature is fallacy. we have 2 sides. a duality. we have the good and bad. ying and yang. earth and heaven. devil and angle.
we have the ideas and theories and abstract ideas we can talk about like love and math. these are heaven. these are what makes us the intelligent part of "intelligent animals". it's our laws and reason.
we have the instincts and the material world we live in. This is the part of us that makes us kill, that makes us hungry, that makes us stupid. this is the devil. this the material world, the part that doesn't need or want society. the selfish part that thinks only in reality world. this is the animal part of "intelligent animals". there is only survival of the fittest and emotions.
Cynicism came about popularity because of the fall of civilization as they knew it, and to turn away from a corrupt government. the ideas and reasons of the heaven part of humanity was tainted by the devil part. but the ironic part is that the devil offers happiness, and relief. heaven only offers constant struggle.
and to reply to your answer, why would i even be in the woods? i live in the city. i am a human being, we left thoes woods when the first self-aware human descended from the trees to find better food sources. we are both human and animal. we are BOTH and neither!
we can no more embrace one side then we can ignore another. this is why it's so spiritually painful. there is no escape! there is only accepting that. the path to bettering humanity does not lie with the material world, with nature. nature only offers material answers. this is the exact issue you have, is with money and cars. materials possessions. the need for this comes from the animal side of us. from the side that was born in nature.
these material possessions are reminders of tribal cultures of needs being fulfilled. we are beyond just self-sufficient. it's helping each other that is against nature, that actually brings fulfillment. to think nature will do that is a fallacy.
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17-06-2009 09:08 |
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cynik
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
we are beyond just self-sufficient. it's helping each other that is against nature, that actually brings fulfillment. to think nature will do that is a fallacy. |
I dont get this. helping eachother against nature 
its nonsense
I got something to tell you on that though. one must first learn to help himself in order to help others. you have to love yourself in order to be able to love the other. by equaling yourself with the others (as it should be and not honoring the constant divide by means of wealth and power), only then you are really able to help and understand.
another thing. you say we have math etc. and taht is "heaven"? what shameful glorification of mankinds superiority just because other beings dont understand it. how rudely selfish of you. tell me, do you understand the speak of the dolphins? do you actually know how much stuff about animal communication is completely unknown to man? actually, the animals are hiding their stuff too. what if we one day understadn each other? wouldnt that in some way help humanity as well? animals have emotion too, some of them are extremely intelligent. but noo. lets kill them all and build computers in their place
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https://soundcloud.com/tsai-vidro-voves
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17-06-2009 10:57 |
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Saikonutta
not helpful ^^
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| quote: |
Originally posted by cynik
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
we are beyond just self-sufficient. it's helping each other that is against nature, that actually brings fulfillment. to think nature will do that is a fallacy. |
I dont get this. helping eachother against nature
its nonsense
I got something to tell you on that though. one must first learn to help himself in order to help others. you have to love yourself in order to be able to love the other. by equaling yourself with the others (as it should be and not honoring the constant divide by means of wealth and power), only then you are really able to help and understand.
another thing. you say we have math etc. and taht is "heaven"? what shameful glorification of mankinds superiority just because other beings dont understand it. how rudely selfish of you. tell me, do you understand the speak of the dolphins? do you actually know how much stuff about animal communication is completely unknown to man? actually, the animals are hiding their stuff too. what if we one day understadn each other? wouldnt that in some way help humanity as well? animals have emotion too, some of them are extremely intelligent. but noo. lets kill them all and build computers in their place |
i say "AMEN" to that 
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17-06-2009 13:15 |
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Halph-Price
Zombie Algorithm
Registration Date: 22-12-2004
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| quote: |
Originally posted by cynik
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
we are beyond just self-sufficient. it's helping each other that is against nature, that actually brings fulfillment. to think nature will do that is a fallacy. |
I dont get this. helping eachother against nature
its nonsense
I got something to tell you on that though. one must first learn to help himself in order to help others. you have to love yourself in order to be able to love the other. by equaling yourself with the others (as it should be and not honoring the constant divide by means of wealth and power), only then you are really able to help and understand.
another thing. you say we have math etc. and taht is "heaven"? what shameful glorification of mankinds superiority just because other beings dont understand it. how rudely selfish of you. tell me, do you understand the speak of the dolphins? do you actually know how much stuff about animal communication is completely unknown to man? actually, the animals are hiding their stuff too. what if we one day understadn each other? wouldnt that in some way help humanity as well? animals have emotion too, some of them are extremely intelligent. but noo. lets kill them all and build computers in their place |
well I don't say animals do not have emotions. I have a small dog myself, and you can even see their range of emotions. to be honest, an infant child has the same emotional responses as any other mammal it seems. it's once we get a higher cognitive function in our mind do we get more developed emotions.
this is glorifying humanity, because I don't know if dolphins have mastered advanced calculus. We can communicate greatly amongst ourselves, and to a lesser extent animals, but understanding is always difficult. I mean even you and me talking here we still have difficulty truly understanding one another. let alone another species.
To say that math is to heaven, is a metaphor. Math along with any other abstract idea does not exist in the material world. You'll never discovery the number 2 sitting out int he trees, you'll never find love perched upon a branch, you'll never find equality of humans in the depths of a cave. these are abstracts. they exist int eh same imaginary world as god. The frontal lobe of the human brain. Along with goblins, witches, and aliens.
The frontal lobe. without it we are more animal and less human.
I understand you thinking it's nature or human nature to help one another. it is, to a VERY limited extent. it's called Dunbar's number which is directly related to cognitive power how many people's feelings you can consider. to include in your social world. people that you care if you fuck over or not. for humans it's about 100 people. you will help and consider about this much.
Even then just open up the news paper or turn on the new son TV. you'll see stories of how people are killing and stealing and hurting each other.
The stories you read in the news paper about murder and theft are not committed by people following higher thinking. these people are not transcending the human condition. they are sinking in it, in fact, downing in it. to be human, is to be flawed. the only perfect world exists with math and reason. only in math can you have a line that is infinitely long and infinity thin and infinity straight.
that is the basis of finding perfection. not by retreating into nature. nature made us, it will not sooth us. ideas like truth, and love, and justice, and logic. these are abstract ideas that are part of "heaven" that doesn't exist, yet they DO exist, at the same time. they are a paradox. we cannot see love in any of the 5 senses, yet we feel it's effect. we cannot show it to others yet we can describe it.
this is how one over comes nature and the human condition. abstractions. one of the few things worth dying for. people and ideas are the only 2 things worth dying for and the only things worth giving a damn about.
to get on topic, abstract ideas are something only a self-aware person can think of. this requires higher cognitive thinking. maybe dolphins can imagine a god, and math, and have such advanced communication skills. but they lack the tools we have to use the higher communication powers. to have books, and computers. these things we take for granted. these are what make us powerful. if one could not write down blueprints to create an atom bomb, it's secret would die with that human, less it be describe accurately by all his followers.
sidenote: if i seem rude, i'm not. maybe you should take your ego out of the conversation. it's not shameful to say humanity is superior. we have launched space shuttles, we have explored our world and understood it and created great arts. we have helped those in need and have taken on appreciating this world be discovering it.
you live in what part of the world? i live in Canada. we're having a debate over great distances. you tell me which dolphins has that power, and I'll praise him as well.
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This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by Halph-Price: 17-06-2009 21:50.
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17-06-2009 21:41 |
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Saikonutta
not helpful ^^
Registration Date: 09-11-2006
Posts: 275
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
| quote: |
Originally posted by cynik
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
we are beyond just self-sufficient. it's helping each other that is against nature, that actually brings fulfillment. to think nature will do that is a fallacy. |
I dont get this. helping eachother against nature
its nonsense
I got something to tell you on that though. one must first learn to help himself in order to help others. you have to love yourself in order to be able to love the other. by equaling yourself with the others (as it should be and not honoring the constant divide by means of wealth and power), only then you are really able to help and understand.
another thing. you say we have math etc. and taht is "heaven"? what shameful glorification of mankinds superiority just because other beings dont understand it. how rudely selfish of you. tell me, do you understand the speak of the dolphins? do you actually know how much stuff about animal communication is completely unknown to man? actually, the animals are hiding their stuff too. what if we one day understadn each other? wouldnt that in some way help humanity as well? animals have emotion too, some of them are extremely intelligent. but noo. lets kill them all and build computers in their place |
well I don't say animals do not have emotions. I have a small dog myself, and you can even see their range of emotions. to be honest, an infant child has the same emotional responses as any other mammal it seems. it's once we get a higher cognitive function in our mind do we get more developed emotions.
this is glorifying humanity, because I don't know if dolphins have mastered advanced calculus. We can communicate greatly amongst ourselves, and to a lesser extent animals, but understanding is always difficult. I mean even you and me talking here we still have difficulty truly understanding one another. let alone another species.
To say that math is to heaven, is a metaphor. Math along with any other abstract idea does not exist in the material world. You'll never discovery the number 2 sitting out int he trees, you'll never find love perched upon a branch, you'll never find equality of humans in the depths of a cave. these are abstracts. they exist int eh same imaginary world as god. The frontal lobe of the human brain. Along with goblins, witches, and aliens.
The frontal lobe. without it we are more animal and less human.
I understand you thinking it's nature or human nature to help one another. it is, to a VERY limited extent. it's called Dunbar's number which is directly related to cognitive power how many people's feelings you can consider. to include in your social world. people that you care if you fuck over or not. for humans it's about 100 people. you will help and consider about this much.
Even then just open up the news paper or turn on the new son TV. you'll see stories of how people are killing and stealing and hurting each other.
The stories you read in the news paper about murder and theft are not committed by people following higher thinking. these people are not transcending the human condition. they are sinking in it, in fact, downing in it. to be human, is to be flawed. the only perfect world exists with math and reason. only in math can you have a line that is infinitely long and infinity thin and infinity straight.
that is the basis of finding perfection. not by retreating into nature. nature made us, it will not sooth us. ideas like truth, and love, and justice, and logic. these are abstract ideas that are part of "heaven" that doesn't exist, yet they DO exist, at the same time. they are a paradox. we cannot see love in any of the 5 senses, yet we feel it's effect. we cannot show it to others yet we can describe it.
this is how one over comes nature and the human condition. abstractions. one of the few things worth dying for. people and ideas are the only 2 things worth dying for and the only things worth giving a damn about.
to get on topic, abstract ideas are something only a self-aware person can think of. this requires higher cognitive thinking. maybe dolphins can imagine a god, and math, and have such advanced communication skills. but they lack the tools we have to use the higher communication powers. to have books, and computers. these things we take for granted. these are what make us powerful. if one could not write down blueprints to create an atom bomb, it's secret would die with that human, less it be describe accurately by all his followers.
sidenote: if i seem rude, i'm not. maybe you should take your ego out of the conversation. it's not shameful to say humanity is superior. we have launched space shuttles, we have explored our world and understood it and created great arts. we have helped those in need and have taken on appreciating this world be discovering it.
you live in what part of the world? i live in Canada. we're having a debate over great distances. you tell me which dolphins has that power, and I'll praise him as well. |
With all respect, but i'm too lazy to type a big response like this, again to defend my arguments, pfff... :p...
It's not fun anymore, to complex & useless...
Just 2 things:
*yes dolphins/whales communicate over VERY big distances. (continental to global)
(off-topic) *even some scientists assume some squid fishes/insects master some kind of telepathy
(ot)*some birds have an 'embedded compass' to navigate (are you that advanced you can interpret magnetic field lines directly?)
*You didn't convince me to believe i'm part of a "superior" organism, and i'll end my discussion here. All is equal imo, some just like to think they're 'better' because he masters technology, or just assume they are 'better'? wotever... not me. My consciousness tells me that 'better' is my own interpretation, a human abstrahism(if that word exists... 
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EDIT: As a musician, i see harmony (nature) as perfection and your way of thinking as a 'threat' to this perfection. We certainly shouldn't see nature as something 'less valuable', we should adapt to it, because we are nature. This is just the most logic, easiest way to be part of the harmony. Don't interfere with the universe, it 'created' you, so imo the least you should do is respect that.
This post has been edited 5 time(s), it was last edited by Saikonutta: 18-06-2009 11:29.
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18-06-2009 10:43 |
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cynik
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I am gonna take snippets from your post and answer below
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
We can communicate greatly amongst ourselves, and to a lesser extent animals, but understanding is always difficult. I mean even you and me talking here we still have difficulty truly understanding one another. let alone another species. |
this is a bit funny, because you contradict yourself. "we communicate greatly" yet "still have difficulty understanding". what is that "great communication" worth then? I believe communication by talking is so unperfect and flawed, its often a barrier rather than a bridge between people.
for me and a lot of people I know, is often easier to communicate with animals, often better friendships are had with your pet than other people.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
To say that math is to heaven, is a metaphor. Math along with any other abstract idea does not exist in the material world. You'll never discovery the number 2 sitting out int he trees, you'll never find love perched upon a branch, you'll never find equality of humans in the depths of a cave. these are abstracts. they exist int eh same imaginary world as god. The frontal lobe of the human brain. |
I dont know really why you have such an obsessive wish to patronize people. I know what a metaphor is, what you obviously dont know is that mathemathics is something people learned FROM the nature. yeah thats right, and thats something you learn in elemetary school so Im not gonna go into detail now. just educate yourself
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
I understand you thinking it's nature or human nature to help one another. it is, to a VERY limited extent. it's called Dunbar's number which is directly related to cognitive power how many people's feelings you can consider. to include in your social world. people that you care if you fuck over or not. for humans it's about 100 people. you will help and consider about this much. |
woooow. a Dunbar number. who gives a shit, I dont get impressed by fancy names of theories. because thats what it is. this is fact though - there are people that through history hurt a lot of people, like Dzenghis Khan, then there are people that helped an enormous number of people, redefining our very existence and brinign it to another level, like Nikola Tesla. it took just one man to do all those things to humanity
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
Even then just open up the news paper or turn on the new son TV. you'll see stories of how people are killing and stealing and hurting each other.
The stories you read in the news paper about murder and theft are not committed by people following higher thinking. these people are not transcending the human condition. they are sinking in it, in fact, downing in it. to be human, is to be flawed. the only perfect world exists with math and reason. only in math can you have a line that is infinitely long and infinity thin and infinity straight. |
again, mathematics came from nature, the only place where thigns are following laws of mathematics and they are not human made
one other thing. you gotta take into consideration I dont follow your standard media, tv and newspaper being the trashiest examples. I might watch something someone I know made but thats another thing, watching from the artistic point of view. but to inform, no, I dont let it disinform me.
thinking in a way to come to such conclusions as "to be human is to be flawed" is a destructive way of thinkning that only leads to misery. allowing for a wider approach to the subject as "some humans are flawed" is perfectly ok. but you do not prove your humanity by being flawed. thats a fundamental difference between our two ways of thinkning. but mine is better because I allow for progress and change for better. as long as there is that way of thinkning things can go better. you however, can only despare that nothing will ever change and there is only abstract prospects of "computer conscience" and the evolution of it. if we only had that kind of veiws we would be living Fallout for a long time now
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
that is the basis of finding perfection. not by retreating into nature. nature made us, it will not sooth us. ideas like truth, and love, and justice, and logic. these are abstract ideas that are part of "heaven" that doesn't exist, yet they DO exist, at the same time. they are a paradox. we cannot see love in any of the 5 senses, yet we feel it's effect. we cannot show it to others yet we can describe it. |
we cannot "retreat" to somewhere where we already are. nature is not a geographical or chronological point from which or to where we can go or leave as we wish. it is something we are, where we belong. you can turn away from it and when you do, only hate, death and destruction awaits.
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
to get on topic, abstract ideas are something only a self-aware person can think of. this requires higher cognitive thinking. maybe dolphins can imagine a god, and math, and have such advanced communication skills. but they lack the tools we have to use the higher communication powers. to have books, and computers. these things we take for granted. these are what make us powerful. if one could not write down blueprints to create an atom bomb, it's secret would die with that human, less it be describe accurately by all his followers. |
there goes again, atom bomb? are you saying you agree it is a great invention? that one is nothing short of a disastrous mistake. that and reality shows
and again, you show great ignorance towards things you dont know, from a postion high up built upon the fact of being mentally stronger. man is evil and hunts down with cowardly tactics but that in your opinion justifies the killing. there is no justice there, humans are cowardly cheating bastards. I hate that human side, therefore I am misanthrope
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
sidenote: if i seem rude, i'm not. maybe you should take your ego out of the conversation. it's not shameful to say humanity is superior. we have launched space shuttles, we have explored our world and understood it and created great arts. we have helped those in need and have taken on appreciating this world be discovering it. |
I didnt say you are rude, sorry for the misunderstanding. I say your way of thinking is because it ignores real values. tell me what paractical use you have from the numerous space shuttle rides which only cost much but bring absolutely nothing to humanity. if we didnt divide into nations, religions, but worked together on space exploration, maybe we could have get somewhere with it. right now, its got no practical use. space programmes launched by worlds superpowers are used exclusively for competition between those powers. who gets there first. its sickening if you consider who pays the price of the abnormal funding such programs receive. the poor
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
you live in what part of the world? i live in Canada. we're having a debate over great distances. you tell me which dolphins has that power, and I'll praise him as well. |
Canada is to a great extent a free world. you should be lucky. it has brought many independent journalists and free thinkers who did works wchiich if not now, Im sure in future will bring better to humanity
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https://soundcloud.com/tsai-vidro-voves
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by cynik: 18-06-2009 12:35.
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18-06-2009 12:26 |
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Halph-Price
Zombie Algorithm
Registration Date: 22-12-2004
Posts: 6,160
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Originally posted by cynik
I am gonna take snippets from your post and answer below
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
We can communicate greatly amongst ourselves, and to a lesser extent animals, but understanding is always difficult. I mean even you and me talking here we still have difficulty truly understanding one another. let alone another species. |
this is a bit funny, because you contradict yourself. "we communicate greatly" yet "still have difficulty understanding". what is that "great communication" worth then? I believe communication by talking is so unperfect and flawed, its often a barrier rather than a bridge between people.
for me and a lot of people I know, is often easier to communicate with animals, often better friendships are had with your pet than other people.
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
To say that math is to heaven, is a metaphor. Math along with any other abstract idea does not exist in the material world. You'll never discovery the number 2 sitting out int he trees, you'll never find love perched upon a branch, you'll never find equality of humans in the depths of a cave. these are abstracts. they exist int eh same imaginary world as god. The frontal lobe of the human brain. |
I dont know really why you have such an obsessive wish to patronize people. I know what a metaphor is, what you obviously dont know is that mathemathics is something people learned FROM the nature. yeah thats right, and thats something you learn in elemetary school so Im not gonna go into detail now. just educate yourself
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
I understand you thinking it's nature or human nature to help one another. it is, to a VERY limited extent. it's called Dunbar's number which is directly related to cognitive power how many people's feelings you can consider. to include in your social world. people that you care if you fuck over or not. for humans it's about 100 people. you will help and consider about this much. |
woooow. a Dunbar number. who gives a shit, I dont get impressed by fancy names of theories. because thats what it is. this is fact though - there are people that through history hurt a lot of people, like Dzenghis Khan, then there are people that helped an enormous number of people, redefining our very existence and brinign it to another level, like Nikola Tesla. it took just one man to do all those things to humanity
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
Even then just open up the news paper or turn on the new son TV. you'll see stories of how people are killing and stealing and hurting each other.
The stories you read in the news paper about murder and theft are not committed by people following higher thinking. these people are not transcending the human condition. they are sinking in it, in fact, downing in it. to be human, is to be flawed. the only perfect world exists with math and reason. only in math can you have a line that is infinitely long and infinity thin and infinity straight. |
again, mathematics came from nature, the only place where thigns are following laws of mathematics and they are not human made
one other thing. you gotta take into consideration I dont follow your standard media, tv and newspaper being the trashiest examples. I might watch something someone I know made but thats another thing, watching from the artistic point of view. but to inform, no, I dont let it disinform me.
thinking in a way to come to such conclusions as "to be human is to be flawed" is a destructive way of thinkning that only leads to misery. allowing for a wider approach to the subject as "some humans are flawed" is perfectly ok. but you do not prove your humanity by being flawed. thats a fundamental difference between our two ways of thinkning. but mine is better because I allow for progress and change for better. as long as there is that way of thinkning things can go better. you however, can only despare that nothing will ever change and there is only abstract prospects of "computer conscience" and the evolution of it. if we only had that kind of veiws we would be living Fallout for a long time now
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
that is the basis of finding perfection. not by retreating into nature. nature made us, it will not sooth us. ideas like truth, and love, and justice, and logic. these are abstract ideas that are part of "heaven" that doesn't exist, yet they DO exist, at the same time. they are a paradox. we cannot see love in any of the 5 senses, yet we feel it's effect. we cannot show it to others yet we can describe it. |
we cannot "retreat" to somewhere where we already are. nature is not a geographical or chronological point from which or to where we can go or leave as we wish. it is something we are, where we belong. you can turn away from it and when you do, only hate, death and destruction awaits.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
to get on topic, abstract ideas are something only a self-aware person can think of. this requires higher cognitive thinking. maybe dolphins can imagine a god, and math, and have such advanced communication skills. but they lack the tools we have to use the higher communication powers. to have books, and computers. these things we take for granted. these are what make us powerful. if one could not write down blueprints to create an atom bomb, it's secret would die with that human, less it be describe accurately by all his followers. |
there goes again, atom bomb? are you saying you agree it is a great invention? that one is nothing short of a disastrous mistake. that and reality shows
and again, you show great ignorance towards things you dont know, from a postion high up built upon the fact of being mentally stronger. man is evil and hunts down with cowardly tactics but that in your opinion justifies the killing. there is no justice there, humans are cowardly cheating bastards. I hate that human side, therefore I am misanthrope
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
sidenote: if i seem rude, i'm not. maybe you should take your ego out of the conversation. it's not shameful to say humanity is superior. we have launched space shuttles, we have explored our world and understood it and created great arts. we have helped those in need and have taken on appreciating this world be discovering it. |
I didnt say you are rude, sorry for the misunderstanding. I say your way of thinking is because it ignores real values. tell me what paractical use you have from the numerous space shuttle rides which only cost much but bring absolutely nothing to humanity. if we didnt divide into nations, religions, but worked together on space exploration, maybe we could have get somewhere with it. right now, its got no practical use. space programmes launched by worlds superpowers are used exclusively for competition between those powers. who gets there first. its sickening if you consider who pays the price of the abnormal funding such programs receive. the poor
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
you live in what part of the world? i live in Canada. we're having a debate over great distances. you tell me which dolphins has that power, and I'll praise him as well. |
Canada is to a great extent a free world. you should be lucky. it has brought many independent journalists and free thinkers who did works wchiich if not now, Im sure in future will bring better to humanity |
First off, posting in between my post, is like interrupting me while talking. I got to the third section, felt a bit insulted, and then the fourth one and realized i am talking with someone that has the answers already.
secondly, if you think we learned everything from the outside world, like math, then read Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. there already was someone saying everything is learned from nature, and another saying everything is learned from the mind. in reality it's a mixture, but there's a lot that we're born with too. or just say "whoopdeefuckingdoo, he wrote a book, i don't care about fancy things like that", and go on with your life. you'll just ignore everything i'd say, so i am not going to try. you seem to misinterpret a lot. i am not as stupid as you must think i am.
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This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by Halph-Price: 19-06-2009 02:39.
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19-06-2009 02:24 |
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demure
mastication fo de nation
Registration Date: 22-01-2009
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19-06-2009 02:27 |
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cynik
Cp6uja
Registration Date: 15-03-2005
Posts: 5,646
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awwwwwwww, but Im not, you say a lot of things at once, I just try to answer them, adn I did try to take whole thoughts
and no, I dont think youre stupid. its just a different perspective
Im sorry if anything I said was insulting, but you started this and just maybe you didnt think I was gonna go so far into the matter. you gotta understand I hav these views for a long time now, when you started debating over cynicism I just tried to explain what it means really as you were the one misinterpreting. so these basically are two ways of thinking, since I can relate to it, and understand you its only fair you show a little understanding yourself
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https://soundcloud.com/tsai-vidro-voves
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19-06-2009 06:39 |
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