This is a simple saying that sums up how to prove one exists. I am thinking, therefore my awareness of this process proves (without a doubt) I am an existing conciseness. This only proves my existence to myself.
How can one prove if other have existing consciousness? Is there a way to prove it. This question will bring into light our current computer technology. In fact, it will define all of our limits, up until now.
If you ask a computer a question, this defines their intelligence. If you ask a computer to describe a picture, this defines their recognition. If you ask them to summarize a book, this defines their comprehension.
None of these steps prove a consciousness. It merely defines limitations. Does limitations define consciousness? Does intelligence, recognition, or comprehension matter, for consciousness?
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
"Cogito, ergo sum" (I think, therefore I am)
This is a simple saying that sums up how to prove one exists. I am thinking, therefore my awareness of this process proves (without a doubt) I am an existing conciseness. This only proves my existence to myself.
How can one prove if other have existing consciousness? Is there a way to prove it. This question will bring into light our current computer technology. In fact, it will define all of our limits, up until now.
If you ask a computer a question, this defines their intelligence. If you ask a computer to describe a picture, this defines their recognition. If you ask them to summarize a book, this defines their comprehension.
None of these steps prove a consciousness. It merely defines limitations. Does limitations define consciousness? Does intelligence, recognition, or comprehension matter, for consciousness?
a computer is programmed by humans , and as long as humans dont figure out how the brain + emotions + spiritual things work 100procent , no computer will have consciousness , therefor it should contain all these factors
i dont realy get where u want to go with this questions , definatly not when you ask : does limitations define consciousness
but take the red pill and see how far the rabithole goes , technology nowadays goes crazy turns , deffo with nanotech , darkmatter/energy , exotic propulsion etc...
Find itself as a separate entity
An ego germ is just beginning to be
Wherever there is other, there is fear
Birth, primal paradise
No gap distance or separation
Between self and environment
Unconditional omnipotence
Nothing is himself, everything is world
Consciousness unborn
Uroboric forms
Find itself as a separate entity
An ego germ is just beginning to be
Wherever there is other, there is fear
Birth, primal paradise
No gap distance or separation
Between self and environment
Unconditional omnipotence
Nothing is himself, everything is world
Consciousness unborn
Uroboric forms
nice , sounds like a fat lyrical rhyme too , cynik reprezent
Find itself as a separate entity
An ego germ is just beginning to be
Wherever there is other, there is fear
Birth, primal paradise
No gap distance or separation
Between self and environment
Unconditional omnipotence
Nothing is himself, everything is world
Consciousness unborn
Uroboric forms
This is after greek civilization was destroyed they turned to cynicism. they didn't get rid of fame and wealth, they lost it. they use to be hedonists before. the issue i have with cynicism is getting rid of wealth power and fame. to define virtues is impossible to do. if you use wealth power and fame for good, how does one feel a burden for this? to gather the three for the sake of having them would cause distress.
but i guess that i wasn't focused enough in asking as this got a bit off topic,
If aliens landed, and they didn't look like us, how could you examine them and know they had consciousness?
after I have pondered it a bit, you gave a great example in this thread.
art. this is one thing we create that seems to denote consciousness. lyrics, music, paintings, books. if a computer were to paint a picture of how it feels the morning sun looked like, if it expressed itself, would you not have a sense that this was a self-aware computer? when the alien ship lands, just the design of the ship would express some form of industrial art.
even rationalizing human experience isn't that great of an expression of being self-aware. it's just another simple summation of ones surroundings. that just expreses communications. but to actually turn that into something spiritual, like art.
anyone know of a computer that's ever created art,
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
the issue i have with cynicism is getting rid of wealth power and fame. to define virtues is impossible to do. if you use wealth power and fame for good, how does one feel a burden for this?
why is it impossible? its clear that anything going hand in hand with nature, is virtue.
how can you, moreover, has it ever been done, teh use of power fame and wealth for good? the accumulation of wealth, talking about the serious huge amounts of wealth by itself is based on the suffering of others (poor), there is the burden. the more one rich gets, the less he wants to share. fame is something unavoidable when in possesion of great wealth, and power comes out of both. by not doing the act of accumulation, youre not succumbing to the false judgements of value, as the cynics think. its a matter of self-conciousness, so its not offtopic
Originally posted by Halph-Price
the issue i have with cynicism is getting rid of wealth power and fame. to define virtues is impossible to do. if you use wealth power and fame for good, how does one feel a burden for this?
why is it impossible? its clear that anything going hand in hand with nature, is virtue.
how can you, moreover, has it ever been done, teh use of power fame and wealth for good? the accumulation of wealth, talking about the serious huge amounts of wealth by itself is based on the suffering of others (poor), there is the burden. the more one rich gets, the less he wants to share. fame is something unavoidable when in possesion of great wealth, and power comes out of both. by not doing the act of accumulation, youre not succumbing to the false judgements of value, as the cynics think. its a matter of self-conciousness, so its not offtopic
in nature, to kill is a virtue. for a lion to come into a pride, kill the alpha male, eat his infants, and then fuck his wife is in nature. This is a virtue, because the lion survives, if not the species dies and stops improving. infact there are no vice or virtues in nature. these are PURELY human concepts like wealth and fame!
Any animal in wild tries to accumulate enough for itself. This is what causes the grief of the human condition. Not the want for more, not the vices. The distress of the human condition is that we are separate from nature. You can say it's for worse, but that is ignoring the fact that if we were part of nature, we would be living for survival. At the worest you don't worry about money and fame and power because you're more worried about death, hunger, shelter. At best, to be separate from nature is good, that's what laws do, seperate us from that animal instinct.
A better thing to desire is to help others. It doesn't matter how powerful, rich, and famous you are. To extend yourself to help others using these "vices" will transcendence what happens in nature. To better ourselves and our world around us. that is the only virtue. now i'll break it down and explain why your three vices, wealth, fame, and power are virtues.
Poverty is not a virtue. Wealth is not a vice. Hording money does not make one feel better. Helping friends and family with wealth does improve how you feel. Paying to give your sick and dying mother treatment is not a vice. How yo get the wealth is up for debate though.
Fame. Socrates said "The unexamined life is not worth living." To live a life of fame is to live a life people with examine. To live without ever being known, one might as well not have existed. Again, how one gets fame could be either virtue or vice. Although Hitler was famous doesn't mean fame was a vice, because of him, there will not be tolerance for an extreme dictator again.
Power is just a tool. Just like fame and wealth. Neither are virtue or vice, in themselves. But power is the most extreme extent. Example is the power of a Gun. Not the caliber of a rifle, power, but the power one commands by having a rifle. Ban k robber gains power by having a gun. Peace keepers gain power having a rifle. Police deserve power to keep society from killing everyone, but does a drug dealer deserve power to defend himself?
Well, in short, wealth, fame and power, are just technology in practice. They are just tools, extensions of humans. They do not have an moral right or wrongs vice or virtues, by themselves. To claim a gun is evil, to claim money is evil, to claim TV is evil, is a FALLACY. Guns protect and attack, money helps and hurts, TV dissuades and educates. To claim a vice or virtue, you cannot lookat the method, but the motivation.
To have anything for the sake of having it is a vice.
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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Halph-Price: 16-06-2009 16:57.
Originally posted by Halph-Price
To have anything for the sake of having it is a vice.
like it or not, that is a cynical approach
cynicism came because the whole society imploded. it's not because of something good it came about, it was like the great depression. there was no other choice, then not have. so they made poverty a spiritual thing.
but still, anything for anything sake is never good. but even still, to compare it to nature is the problem. to say anything in nature is virtuous so mindfuck backwards. virtues don't exsist in nature. to think of anything as a virtue in nature is still thinking outside of nature. there is no way to think of virtues and still think of nature.
humanism is maybe more what you should be looking into there. to be as in nature is called humanism, not cynicism. a lot of cynics in ancient greek came from the stoics but also asceticism . they took stoicism methodical view of life, and combined deprivation of asceticism to it. I don't agree with the ascetics. money doesn't buy happiness, but neither does poverty.
i even agree with stoicism more, but cynicism is just ludicrous in it's very basic statement of pursuit of virtue in nature. WHAT VIRTUES ARE THERE IN NATURE? self-sufficiency? this can be obtained by vice!
it was this backwards thinking that heavily influenced Christianity as we know it. the thought that one should be virtuous to find happiness is what they make christinity seem to be about. but in reality, true virtue does not give happiness!! Ignorance is bliss.
True virtues bring suffering. more specifically, it brings OTHERS suffering onto yourself. to help others with their problems, and to deal with their issues is the only virtue i know of. it is against human nature of survival of the fittest. it's to helpt eh weak and old and sick. it's the complete 180 of nature. it's the complete 180 of happiness. THAT is where you find virtue! the furthest from nature and hapiness.
cyncism, is just the early stages of Christianity, and the worst part of Stoicism. IMHO
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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Halph-Price: 16-06-2009 18:16.
cynicism came because the whole society imploded. it's not because of something good it came about, it was like the great depression. there was no other choice, then not have. so they made poverty a spiritual thing.
its not a spiritual thing
every radical movement, thinking, phylosphy started BECAUSE there was a problem. so dont go explaining things which are obvious. that goes for a number of statements, dont go wasting energy going into detail of how/why for the sake of me understanding, its quite alright if youre doing for the others.
following the notion, I think all of mankind is in such a huge depression atm, that it has picked up most of bad things ever happened, and did not evlolve
for whatever reason bad things happen, they dont ever go away, just escalate and show elsewhere, only bigger, in another time. its how bad it is
not going to comment your wild assumptions such as mentioning humanism. cynicism is more misanthrope than that
Asceticism itself is what it comes down to which can go two ways. the withdrawing from the world, from material possessions is common in more then just cynicism. that's in judaism, hindi, christinaity, islam, buhhdism, to think that material things can bring vice. this is a philosophy that withdraws not from material possessions, but from the world. it's vicariously withdrawing from the world with the excuse that objects bring vice.
again objects have no morality in themselves. having money and cars and tv's doesn't make vice. desire for them does, but it's no irrational to want to have money for food, cars to get around and tv's to know what's going on in the world. all of these objects, and many objects, help connect us.
it's when you want too much. and too much is hard to define. how many cars is too many cars to own? if you have 5 tv's is that over doing it?
in short, cults use the excuse that material possessions are evil. in relation, communist and facist use the same excuse. extreme dictatorships use the excuse that possessions are evil, because it's the first step to freedom. it's why ownership, and theft are the 2 issues you need to address to have a free and stable country.
jails do not allow possession of many objects. they can get stolen, this is not a stable world to live in. you cannot build a society if anyone can steal from anyone. ownership of possessions is the first, and very basic step to have a harmonic society. without that, money and power doesn't matter. all is lost.
but if possessions are vice, then ALL civilization are built on vice? doesn't seem true to me.
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