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Gay Marriage

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Tomos

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LOL! Fucking 'ell mate, I didn't want to start a war with you. Big Grin

Calm down, you seem very emotional.

quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
And no society in this world will EVER BE GAY. Why? Because it would die out. So no society will ever support without any troubles gay people that spread the influence that "gay is ok". It is not. It is consisted of wrong sexual objects, and it cannot be transfered to offspring.

Since when did you become an expert on evolutionary biology? It's strange but I've read quite a few books by Richard Dawkins and Charles Darwin - who actually know what they are talking about on this subject - but I've never heard them talk like you do on this subject.

And why do you seem so paranoid and emotional about the idea that 'gay is ok'. The human species is hardly in danger of extinction. Quite the oppositie if anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
So, don't tell me again that GAYNESS is GENETICALLY TRANSFERED, because IT CAN'T BE. The only thing which is genetically transfered is the mechanism to become aroused and to fuck the sexual object of your desire. Which will that be, depends on your upbringing.

Sorry but from what I've read from experts on the subject, this appears to be factually incorrect.

quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
I am sick of you gays wanting public recognition. I have nothing against you if you're gay. But be GAY FOR YOURSELF. Or create a separate society where you will tolerate yourself. You won't see big tolerance in straight societies.

Mate, I'm not gay. The only thing I am saying is that people shouldn't be discriminated on the basis of their sexuality. Don't confuse what I'm saying with gay pride or anything else like that because I'm not talking about that.

quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
Oh, and, marriage is straight institution. So fuckin get rid of it. Invent something on your own. With your desire to get into marriage, you're stealing the unique characteristic of straight people. Don't act so surprised when they wanna put you on the North Pole for that.

Jesus, where did that come from? Big Grin

Who said gays wanted to 'steal the unique characteristic of straight people'? Again, forgive me for pointing this out but you do appear quite paranoid by homosexuality.

quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
It is something like, I wrote this book and someone steals it from me, and reaps the benefits from it. I am going to kill him.

Mate, I really think you need to start thinking objectively, without emotionally-filled antagonism. I know that sounds quite arrogant but it's true. Read some of the excellent books written by the people listed in my signature.

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27-02-2009 20:55

Muad'Dib Muad'Dib is a male

Andrejnalin

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quote:

Originally posted by Tomos
LOL! Fucking 'ell mate, I didn't want to start a war with you. Big Grin

Calm down, you seem very emotional.

I don't want to start war with you, either. The harsh words were against the gays I mention in my text, not against you. Because I know that eventually some of them will read this text, and be offended or whatever, but I really hope they'll get the point.
Oh, and I am not emotional. I just know they won't get the point if something doesn't touch them emotionally and pay attention to what I am writing.

Ok then, onto the next one...

quote:

Originally posted by Tomos

quote:

Alright then, have you really read the books by Dawkins and Darwin? The Selfish Gene? The Blind Watchmaker? The Extended Phenotype?
Then you must know that gene is spread in almost the same way as information is spread. It copies itself. In the process of copying there are malformations (mutations). If the mutation is good for the survival of the gene, it survives. If it is not, it's weed out of the gene pool. Very simple.
How can a gay gene be good for a survival of a straight society (and, mind you, only a straight society/individuals can perpetuate themselves further) ?
In none logical way. Thus, such gene cannot survive.
People weren't thinking about these matters in the way we're reasoning today. There weren't sperm banks then, which can possibly spread gay genes further. They weren't thinking on so advanced level, that is required for these matters, some 300 years ago. There weren't such a debate then. Because people didn't have the knowledge to enter these kinds of discussions, and to think about whether gay is ok or not. But they felt it wasn't. Why? Because it IS QUEER. It is not 'normal' in society's terms. Hence, the rage against such appearances.

Anyways, I never said gay was not ok. I said that that is a private matter and that it tears my nerves when someone (doesn't matter whether straight or gay, racist, nazi or whatever else) want a recognition for that. That is plainly idiotic.

And another thing, spreading that gay is ok among children is not ok. Why? Because, as I pointed before, the forming of a sexual object is majorly informational, if not the whole. Like the Gene, the Meme, about which Dawkins talks, spreads the same way. It is a piece of information, which copies itself in people's minds. Imagine if more info were to come about gay and how it is ok and what not. Surely more of it will reach children. And surely more of them will become gay. Which doesn't comply in any way with the Gene imperative that you must replicate, and that's why is your life for. A machine which carries the genes with itself so it can spread them forward. And that's why GAY GENE cannot transfer, or will be quickly wed out of the gene pool. Which answers your next claim, namely:

quote:

Originally posted by Tomos

quote:

Sorry but from what I've read from experts on the subject, this appears to be factually incorrect.

Oh, and, to add: you must surely don't believe that so advanced information (about what is a female/male/sexual object) can be put in a gene, and can put in as a whole, homogeneous information while the embryo is developing!!
As a back-up for that, I am going to mention Ray Kurzweil's claim (futurist and a great scientist, invented the Kurzweil synthesizers etc.) that the brain has a small thread in the DNA, but mostly of it is redundant info (it repeats itself without any cause many times) and, the information to build the brain is about 1 GB when the brain can hold about 15 TB of data in itself (not sure about the last number, though). But that sequence of the DNA doesn't hold any informations about some special info which is so complex, as some desired sexual object. It just holds the mechanism that such object can be achieved, and what should one do with such an object.
Which totally agrees with Freud's theory on sexuality (refer to "3 arguments about the sexual theory") that people desire to find a sexual object which is similar to their mom/dad (man/woman respectively). It is because sexual objects are complicated mental formations which are acquired in life, and not genetically. And the first sexual figure for a kid is his mom or day. And yes, the kid knows which one is who because of breast-feeding and similar activities.
And another back-up: Kurzweil analyzed some papers of some scientists which said that the brain acquired some arbitrary knowledge when it develops (in the embryonic stage) but that is just to develop the neuro-transmiter activity inside of it, as a development genetic mechanism. That "information" and connections between neurons disintegrates almost immediately as soon as the baby is born.

About this:

quote:

Originally posted by Tomos

quote:

I just wanna point again that that text wasn't against you, but against gay people that want recognition and society's appraisal because they are gay. So don't take it personal, it was for them. Big Grin

I am very tolerant and I don't say they are not ok. Of course, they can be whatever they want themselves to be or choose or are chosen or whatever. They are natural, because they exist. That's the simple truth.
But I hate when they are up and about their recognition. Makes me sick. Listen to that Gay pride mp3 I put in my previous post, to get the point of what irritates me.

quote:

Originally posted by Tomos

quote:

Jesus, where did that come from? Big Grin

Who said gays wanted to 'steal the unique characteristic of straight people'? Again, forgive me for pointing this out but you do appear quite paranoid by homosexuality.

I am not paranoid by homosexuality. I dislike marriage as an institution, but I was just explaining the psychological effect on the straight people which comes from when the gay people ask to be permitted to marry themselves. My personal opinion is that two (three, or however much) people can live in great communion with themselves without the need to pronounce that as "marriage". Thus I don't see what's the point about gays having the right of marriage? They can live together with no problems whatsoever. It turns out that they just wanna take the marriage institution because they have a complex that they are not recognized enough, and that that is the path to achieve that goal. Which is, again, idiotic.

quote:

Originally posted by Tomos

quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
It is something like, I wrote this book and someone steals it from me, and reaps the benefits from it. I am going to kill him.

[/quote]
I've read those three and plus "The God Delusion" from Dawkins. I've read "God is not Great" from Hitchens.
"The origin of species" (classic, of course) by Darwin. I've come out with my own systems theory (basically, complex adaptive systems etc., google it up).
And 2 dozen of psychology books.
So, yes, I have knowledge on the subject. Not expert, of course, but enough to know what I am talking about.
And, no, I am not against gay people. I am against their festivals, their pride parades and their complex of "non-recognition".
That is all.

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27-02-2009 21:55

Tomos

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Mu, I still have to disagree with a lot of what you say. Your arguments against gay marriage in particular I find quite bizarre and illogical. Also, much of the research you quoted is very speculative. For starters, not everything that occurs in evolution has a pure survival benefit! (Female orgasms spring to mind at this point. Big Grin

) I've also read quite a bit too (mostly Dawkins and Darwin, like I said), so I think I'll pass on your theory and stick with the experts. No disrespect. Happy

At the end of the day, whether our sexuality is chosen or not (and I seriously doubt that it is), the important thing is that no one is discriminated, bullied or abused based upon their sexual orientation. That is what 'makes me sick'.

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27-02-2009 23:17

Binary Havoc Binary Havoc is a male

Binary Havoc

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quote:

Originally posted by Yawn

quote:

Originally posted by techlogix
me and a freind spitroasted the same girl 2 days later lol

did you hi-five each other lol??

two of friends of mine allegedly spitroasted a 40 year old woman at butlins in bognor regis.... Hihi

and apparently she had to stop them and tell them that their constant hi-fiving each other was putting her off ROFL

roflmfao

Just catchin up with this thread and that quote gave me a fit of the giggles man.....funny as

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27-02-2009 23:31

BattleDrone BattleDrone is a male

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quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib

I've read those three and plus "The God Delusion" from Dawkins. I've read "God is not Great" from Hitchens.
"The origin of species" (classic, of course) by Darwin. I've come out with my own systems theory (basically, complex adaptive systems etc., google it up).
And 2 dozen of psychology books.
So, yes, I have knowledge on the subject. Not expert, of course, but enough to know what I am talking about.
And, no, I am not against gay people. I am against their festivals, their pride parades and their complex of "non-recognition".
That is all.

I get the impression that for someone who has read this many books you often seem to express yourself very black and white, sloganesque, populistic and with a lot of holes in your theories... Not that there is anything wrong with that, it has been a very popular and succesful method for a lot of political parties in a lot of countries around the globe. I might be wrong there ofcourse, as always.

If you post a quote from "some friend" you should stand up for it or not post it.

Anyway we all seem to have our opinions. For me this thread is closed.

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27-02-2009 23:39

Muad'Dib Muad'Dib is a male

Andrejnalin

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Anything can be explained evolutionary, whether directly or indirectly.

quote:

[i]Taken from: http://www.egothemag.com/archives/2005/0...cret_purp_1.htm
...In fact, medical literature on fertility reveals that if there is no orgasm, only 1% of the sperm make it inside the uterus, whereas if there is an orgasm as much as 5% semen make it to their destination. This is a significant difference since it improves the chances of becoming pregnant five times.

supported by: http://www.globalideasbank.org/site/bank/idea.php?ideaId=880

And that's just one side of it. It may serve as a reward sign, so when a female copulates with a male with good genes, she receives great reward in her brain through orgasm(s), and makes her want to copulate with him again to repeat the feeling. As for those that didn't cause such feelings, they receive significantly less sex.

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27-02-2009 23:45

Muad'Dib Muad'Dib is a male

Andrejnalin

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quote:

Originally posted by BattleDrone

quote:

Friend, which part of

quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
And, no, I am not against gay people. I am against their festivals, their pride parades and their complex of "non-recognition".
That is all.

Was black and white, populistic or whatever?
And the text was really from a friend of mine. I can't prove it, of course, unless I bring him to this board to confirm it (which you also might see as me making new accounts to back up my claims, etc, like freestyle did), and I said I concur with his opinion, but I posted that text so that people can think about it themselves and interpret.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I would like for you to point a hole in my writings.

BTW I would be very pleased if people stop mixing "against" with "not understanding of".

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27-02-2009 23:49

Muad'Dib Muad'Dib is a male

Andrejnalin

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Ok, this is the last question that sums it up:

preconditions:
- gene is a replicator. Sole purpose: to replicate;
- the gene has to has the phenotypic ability to replicate enough so it can survive in the world;
- human sexual behaviour and replication: by using two organisms, and by combination which must include an ovum (female) and a sperm (male);

question:
How can a given gay gene benefit itself and pass on further, when it cannot replicate through sexual activity?

If you answer this in a logical, evolutionary sense, I will abolish my theory (which complies with Dawkins and Darwin's, BTW).

Ahh, I just want if I could remember where all those info's and claims of scientists came from exactly, so I can just point you to the links.
I can't find them now, unfortunately.

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28-02-2009 00:05

Tomos

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quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
Anything can be explained evolutionary, whether directly or indirectly.

quote:

Taken from: http://www.egothemag.com/archives/2005/0...cret_purp_1.htm
...In fact, medical literature on fertility reveals that if there is no orgasm, only 1% of the sperm make it inside the uterus, whereas if there is an orgasm as much as 5% semen make it to their destination. This is a significant difference since it improves the chances of becoming pregnant five times.

Yes, anyone can come up with ideas on how something like the female orgasm may have survival value, but these ideas are highly speculative. You can hardly regard them as anything but conjecture because the question of whether evolution actually happened like that is a totally different question and must be backed up a lot of scientific evidence of course.

Anyway, I'm done with this topic. Big Grin

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28-02-2009 00:06

Muad'Dib Muad'Dib is a male

Andrejnalin

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quote:

Originally posted by Tomos

quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
Anything can be explained evolutionary, whether directly or indirectly.

quote:

Taken from: http://www.egothemag.com/archives/2005/0...cret_purp_1.htm
...In fact, medical literature on fertility reveals that if there is no orgasm, only 1% of the sperm make it inside the uterus, whereas if there is an orgasm as much as 5% semen make it to their destination. This is a significant difference since it improves the chances of becoming pregnant five times.

Yes, anyone can come up with ideas on how something like the female orgasm [I]may have survival value, but these ideas are highly speculative. You can hardly regard them as anything but conjecture because the question of whether evolution actually happened like that is a totally different question and must be backed up a lot of scientific evidence of course.

Anyway, I'm done with this topic. Big Grin

Man, evolution is a theory. You even can't prove it totally. But that doesn't matter if it helps us know the world in a better way.

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28-02-2009 00:11

Tomos

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quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
Man, evolution is a theory. You even can't prove it totally. But that doesn't matter if it helps us know the world in a better way.

Evolution is a fact, no question about it. The only people who say 'it's just a theory' are religionists who don't understand what a scientific theory is. It's not the same thing as conjecture or speculation! And it's not just about helping us know the world in a 'better' way but in the actual way the world works. Obviously, our understanding of evolutionary biology has a long way to go but the actual occurence of evolution cannot be doubted.

Ok, that's my last point. Big Grin

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28-02-2009 00:18

Muad'Dib Muad'Dib is a male

Andrejnalin

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quote:

Originally posted by Tomos

quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
Man, evolution is a theory. You even can't prove it totally. But that doesn't matter if it helps us know the world in a better way.

Ok, I will just post this as a reply, seeing that you avoid to answer my last question, and that this is your last claim.

Evolution is a theory. It is not a fact. You can't prove it totally. You have to have all the information in the whole universe, and to be able to analyze it (which cannot be done, as I had pointed before on this board somewhere, that the "best" supercomputer can, for instance, calculate the whole universe, but will not be able to calculate itself because it won't be able to predict which will be the next his state, so it can give satisfying results on the calculation).
Evolution might be true in 99.99999% of the cases. If only 1 case arises which denies it, it is not a fact. It was just a good theory.

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28-02-2009 00:24

BattleDrone BattleDrone is a male

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quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
Friend, which part of

quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
And, no, I am not against gay people. I am against their festivals, their pride parades and their complex of "non-recognition".
That is all.

Was black and white, populistic or whatever?
And the text was really from a friend of mine. I can't prove it, of course, unless I bring him to this board to confirm it (which you also might see as me making new accounts to back up my claims, etc, like freestyle did), and I said I concur with his opinion, but I posted that text so that people can think about it themselves and interpret.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I would like for you to point a hole in my writings.

BTW I would be very pleased if people stop mixing "against" with "not understanding of".

You are against it, but you do understand it? Now there's another hole in your theory.
If you post a quote from someone else and you get negative feedback on it you should stand up for it and not try to pull the attention away with some more quotes.

A lot of women (about 20% as it seems ) never even have an orgasm yet they have kids.

It could very well be that the gay gene (if it exists) is a "mistake" but I've never heard that there are humans with perfect genes and there are a lot of people who are genetically badly prepared for life. If you are born e.g. blind into an agressive environment (let's say anywhere on earth 5000 years ago) you might not live long, yet blind people are born every day. Must we therefor hate blind people? No and nobody does, because it's clear that they have a "handicap" and you would not want to trade with them. Let's see gays as "handicaped" then, if it makes it all easier for you.

If your only purpose in life is "to have kids" then I feel sorry for you.

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28-02-2009 00:28

Muad'Dib Muad'Dib is a male

Andrejnalin

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quote:

Originally posted by BattleDrone

quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
Friend, which part of

quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
And, no, I am not against gay people. I am against their festivals, their pride parades and their complex of "non-recognition".
That is all.

Was black and white, populistic or whatever?
And the text was really from a friend of mine. I can't prove it, of course, unless I bring him to this board to confirm it (which you also might see as me making new accounts to back up my claims, etc, like freestyle did), and I said I concur with his opinion, but I posted that text so that people can think about it themselves and interpret.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I would like for you to point a hole in my writings.

BTW I would be very pleased if people stop mixing "against" with "not understanding of".

Man, you really should stop thinking that I hate gays. I am totally fine with gays. I am not fine with their propaganda.

They do not have a handicap (even from the point that there is no "gay" gene for them to be handicapped with) and that was NOT MY POINT. Who is turning the wheels, now? Maybe that's the whole point.
They DON'T have a HANDICAP so why would they need a special recognition for their not having a handicap? Or maybe they just feel superior, somehow?
Yes, a woman can have kids without having an orgasm. That also was not the point of my quote. The point was that it enlarges (NOT SECURES) the chances of a female getting pregnant, and that an orgasm is likely to be achieved if certain female has sex with someone which is more desirable.
Man, I really don't get how can you mix my claims so much! Shocked

Nobody has the perfect genes, whatever that means.

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28-02-2009 00:39

Muad'Dib Muad'Dib is a male

Andrejnalin

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Oh yeah, and, nobody is 'pulling attention' off the main subject. All my posts were integral to the subject. Stop mocking with me, but read my posts.
If I post a quote of some friend's text, that doesn't mean I concur with his opinion, or that I have to post my opinion.
I just wanted to join the discussion. My real opinion is what I explained in 4 long posts.

Yah, and, if I understand something I must be FOR that?!? I understand why the Nazis wanted to conquer the whole world. You understand them, too, right? Do you sympathize with them, my tolerant friend?
I fail to see any logic there. Please, enlighten me.

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28-02-2009 00:45

D2o

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All gays should be shot and burnt

[/bait] Tongue

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28-02-2009 01:41

BattleDrone BattleDrone is a male

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quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
Oh yeah, and, nobody is 'pulling attention' off the main subject. All my posts were integral to the subject. Stop mocking with me, but read my posts.
If I post a quote of some friend's text, that doesn't mean I concur with his opinion, or that I have to post my opinion.
I just wanted to join the discussion. My real opinion is what I explained in 4 long posts.

Yah, and, if I understand something I must be FOR that?!? I understand why the Nazis wanted to conquer the whole world. You understand them, too, right? Do you sympathize with them, my tolerant friend?
I fail to see any logic there. Please, enlighten me.

Well my friendly friend, if you are so fine with them, why are you against them marrying then (thank god we're on topic again). You state that you're no big fan of marriage yourself (neither am I) but yet you defend marriage against gays. Would you be more at peace with it if it would get a diffenent name if 2 same-sex people would want to connect in an official way?

Your whole issue about the gay-propaganda thing is not supported by any further facts (you just hate it, full stop). When I mention that you express yourself in a black and white way I do mean things like "I hate this" and "I hate that", there's no way in between, this thingy goes into the hate box, that thingy goes into the love box...

And no, I don't understand anyone who wants to conquer the world, bad example. The world should be there for everyone, not for some assholes that want to rule other people.

From a reproductive point of view being gay is plain bad, I do agree on that. Despite that there are a lot of people who seem to be gay though.

I have no clue why I am argueing with you at half past 3 in the morning about a subject like gay marriage that only remotely interests me. It must be because you are a friendly friend my friend.

@Ghost: Burn them first, otherwise they don't suffer enough Tongue

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28-02-2009 03:37

cynik

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quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib
It turns out that they just wanna take the marriage institution because they have a complex that they are not recognized enough, and that that is the path to achieve that goal. Which is, again, idiotic.

and that is the whole truth about the gay marriage

battledrone you are pointing to "holes" in "theories" quoting muaddibs voicing of personal opinion, wtf

basically you feel youve been proved wrong about both marriage and genes theory that you wont comment on this thread anymore. yet you do

so tell me why do you defend gays so fiercely?

you, the gay defending straights must have been living / are living in some sort of repressed state, as to feel discriminated yourselves and thus feeling closer to the various discrimiated groups then to the rest of the populae. those are always the minority, everywhere, without being discriminated they wouldnt exist in the same arrogant and aggressive way. but those groups will support eachother even though they were discriminated for different reasons altogether

to conclude I dont like the gay world because its always a game of domination. you are liberal, right, but what is equal about that? defending the repressed and discriminated is not "being liberal", its taking their side

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28-02-2009 03:40

BattleDrone BattleDrone is a male

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quote:

Originally posted by cynik
basically you feel youve been proved wrong about both marriage and genes theory that you wont comment on this thread anymore. yet you do so tell me why do you defend gays so fiercely?

you, the gay defending straights must have been living / are living in some sort of repressed state, as to feel discriminated yourselves and thus feeling closer to the various discrimiated groups then to the rest of the populae. those are always the minority, everywhere, without being discriminated they wouldnt exist in the same arrogant and aggressive way. but those groups will support eachother even though they were discriminated for different reasons altogether

to conclude I dont like the gay world because its always a game of domination. you are liberal, right, but what is equal about that? defending the repressed and discriminated is not "being liberal", its taking their side

This thread started about marriage, a thing I don't support but what the heck, if gays want to marry, why not let them.

Defending the repressed is taking sides indeed. I don't claim to be neutral in this matter, but I guess no one can. It is not a human right to repress other people. I tend to make a habbit out of defending defencless people.
Everyone is part of a minority (or several if you like). Today it's this minority that is under attack, tomorrow the next. It's not because you belong to the majority that you can not feel simpathy for the repressed or?
If you're country would be attacked by, let's say, China you would be a minority too. Wouldn't you like to get help from others in that case or would it be stupid to take sides in that case?

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28-02-2009 04:12

cynik

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quote:

Originally posted by BattleDrone
This thread started about marriage, a thing I don't support but what the heck, if gays want to marry, why not let them.

because of the faulty motives behind them, which do not derive its energy out of love and care of the partners for eachother but from their hatred towards the rest of the community for humiliating their existence by denying them marriage. as I said though, I dont mind the damn thing myself but I KNOW the community will not accept it in most parts of the world

so the world will be once again divided over something. there will be gay friendly countries and the ones that are not

croatia for example is marketed well for its "gay friendly" environment. the truth is there are hotel complexes and surroundings clear of all citizens in the time of the tourist season. they move in the summer, to the hills, then come back when the season is over. they get paid by the government to do that. the truth is if a couple of gays were to love eachother freely in any of the streets of cities in-land they would soon discover how much the population is friendly and welcome towards them

the paradox of the story- it is benefiting them into becoming a EU member since the society is sooo "liberal" and "advanced"

so it is actually a marketing trick by the government. now it is in being gay, that is whats sickening about it

quote:

Originally posted by BattleDrone
Nobody had tought me anything at that age though, I think I would get beaten up by my dad if I would tell him I had sexual fantasies at that age Big Grin

and there is the repression. so for what reasons did your father get you beat up?

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This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by cynik: 28-02-2009 04:42.

28-02-2009 04:25

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