Originally posted by Tomos
Life elsewhere in the universe may exist but it can't be taken for granted just because there are lots of stars and galaxies out there. That's too simplistic because the requirements for life are very, very numerous.
Errr evolution Tomos mate.
Creatures of Earth are adapted to the environment that Earth brings ...
Therefore there could quite easily be more life outside of Earth that is best suited to their environment.
True, but for lifeforms to exist and for evolution to occur you need a lot of special conditions - stable temperature levels, oxygen in the air, oxygen in the sea, water, light, stable atmosphere, a 'green house' effect in the atmosphere, etc, etc... these things are very, very rare in most planets we know of and unless you have these conditions, there's basically no way lifeforms can be sustained. That's why you would never have life on, say, Mercury or Pluto today.
(Actually, going slightly off topic here - this is one of the arguments that Intelligent Design and other Christian fuckwits use to prove the existence of god. They basically say; because the conditions on earth seem so finely tuned for the existence of life to occur, it must be the cause of an intelligent designer because it's impossible through chance or random physical events alone).
Has anyone been watching the "Catastrophe" series presented by Tony Robinson (aka Baldrick in Blackadder)? It's basically the story behind the creation of planet earth, the emergence of life and the evolution of lifeforms. Amazing stuff and very science based. The last episode in the series is on tonight on Channel 4, 9pm. This one will be about the evolution of humans.
__ MySpace | Soundcloud | Drumnbass.be | Facebook "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." Carl Sagan
Originally posted by Tomos
Has anyone been watching the "Catastrophe" series presented by Tony Robinson (aka Baldrick in Blackadder)? It's basically the story behind the creation of planet earth, the emergence of life and the evolution of lifeforms. Amazing stuff and very science based. The last episode in the series is on tonight on Channel 4, 9pm. This one will be about the evolution of humans.
is that the one where they had an episode about the Earth's biggest ice age?? i think i saw it a couple weeks ago
i do have to say there's nothing better than geeking out to a good documentary
I actually feel like i've learned something after watching things like that (and lets not get into arguments about "is the info correct?" "is it accurate?" either way i smoke a j and forget about it the next day! oh that rhymes
)
I've seen a bit of it, though to be honest after just finishing a 9 month science module (kind of first year general science) I've had quite enough for the moment (till next year at least
)
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Originally posted by Tomos
Life elsewhere in the universe may exist but it can't be taken for granted just because there are lots of stars and galaxies out there. That's too simplistic because the requirements for life are very, very numerous.
Errr evolution Tomos mate.
Creatures of Earth are adapted to the environment that Earth brings ...
Therefore there could quite easily be more life outside of Earth that is best suited to their environment.
True, but for lifeforms to exist and for evolution to occur you need a lot of special conditions - stable temperature levels, oxygen in the air, oxygen in the sea, water, light, stable atmosphere, a 'green house' effect in the atmosphere, etc, etc... these things are very, very rare in most planets we know of and unless you have these conditions, there's basically no way lifeforms can be sustained. That's why you would never have life on, say, Mercury or Pluto today.
You actually have to have those conditions in a cyclic, periodic change for evolution to occur. Harsh conditions for selectivity, good conditions for number enlargement. And so it goes...
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Originally posted by c_ctrl
We got ourselves a proper geekfest goin on here, haven't we?! I reckon there's just too much out there for our limited brains to fathom. Aliens might exist somewhere but apparently according to some guy on the radio in the car, there isn't enough time left on earth to discover it because it's all so far away. By the time we get to the nearest planet that might look inhabited, the world will have completed it's lifespan and blown up or whatever happens to Earths when they die. Now thats a headfuck. As for stars... well I can't count that high.
traveling trough space will probably happen with bending space itself or trough leaks like we call it wormholes or by the power of blackholes , so far traveling is in theory possible.
The stupidest fact is that Space research like NASA only tells 'new' stuff , 5 to 10 years later to the public - or it never comes in the media at all - so you have to research it yourself if you want to know what's going on.
Wait for the CERN LHC results mate (well, the interpretations of the results).
Should be pretty interesting. Could either blow a hole in modern theoretical physics and force some major rethinks or open up some pretty out-there avenues of research
Either way it's good (though I'd rather string/brane/m-theory was given some experimental verification cos you really couldn't make it up lol)
Who knows where any of it'll lead. Exciting stuff!
Originally posted by Tomos
Life elsewhere in the universe may exist but it can't be taken for granted just because there are lots of stars and galaxies out there. That's too simplistic because the requirements for life are very, very numerous.
Errr evolution Tomos mate.
Creatures of Earth are adapted to the environment that Earth brings ...
Therefore there could quite easily be more life outside of Earth that is best suited to their environment.
True, but for lifeforms to exist and for evolution to occur you need a lot of special conditions - stable temperature levels, oxygen in the air, oxygen in the sea, water, light, stable atmosphere, a 'green house' effect in the atmosphere, etc, etc... these things are very, very rare in most planets we know of and unless you have these conditions, there's basically no way lifeforms can be sustained. That's why you would never have life on, say, Mercury or Pluto today.
(Actually, going slightly off topic here - this is one of the arguments that Intelligent Design and other Christian fuckwits use to prove the existence of god. They basically say; because the conditions on earth seem so finely tuned for the existence of life to occur, it must be the cause of an intelligent designer because it's impossible through chance or random physical events alone).
Has anyone been watching the "Catastrophe" series presented by Tony Robinson (aka Baldrick in Blackadder)? It's basically the story behind the creation of planet earth, the emergence of life and the evolution of lifeforms. Amazing stuff and very science based. The last episode in the series is on tonight on Channel 4, 9pm. This one will be about the evolution of humans.
what if extraterestials could live on helium with a temperature of - 33° without oxigen but with 'blablabla-gen' , under a gravity of ...
i mean , everything is possible out there , there is alot more matter then the earthly matter (i suppose) , putting the possibilities of live up.
anyway , i can say i'm 100% shure we're not alone in the universe
Originally posted by Greyone
what if extraterestials could live on helium with a temperature of - 33° without oxigen but with 'blablabla-gen' , under a gravity of ...
i mean , everything is possible out there , there is alot more matter then the earthly matter (i suppose) , putting the possibilities of live up.
I'm gonna sound like an arrogant twat for saying this, but this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard mate.
There is just no way that "everything is possible". That's a total contradiction of everything that experimental and observational science (and just plain common sense) has proven about the world around us.
A statement like "everything is possible" is just as stupid as the religious nutcracker who thinks the world was created in 6 days a few thousands years ago because "God can do anything". I know you don't believe in god, btw.
quote:
Originally posted by Greyone
anyway , i can say i'm 100% shure we're not alone in the universe
It's one thing to say it's probable that there's life out there somewhere (which I do), but it's totally different to say you're 100% sure. That is very naive and flippant because there is just no proof of it yet. Unless you know something that thousands of professional cosmologists don't.
OK, rant over. I feel better now.
__ MySpace | Soundcloud | Drumnbass.be | Facebook "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." Carl Sagan
Originally posted by Tomos
Life elsewhere in the universe may exist but it can't be taken for granted just because there are lots of stars and galaxies out there. That's too simplistic because the requirements for life are very, very numerous.
Errr evolution Tomos mate.
Creatures of Earth are adapted to the environment that Earth brings ...
Therefore there could quite easily be more life outside of Earth that is best suited to their environment.
True, but for lifeforms to exist and for evolution to occur you need a lot of special conditions - stable temperature levels, oxygen in the air, oxygen in the sea, water, light, stable atmosphere, a 'green house' effect in the atmosphere, etc, etc... these things are very, very rare in most planets we know of and unless you have these conditions, there's basically no way lifeforms can be sustained. That's why you would never have life on, say, Mercury or Pluto today.
(Actually, going slightly off topic here - this is one of the arguments that Intelligent Design and other Christian fuckwits use to prove the existence of god. They basically say; because the conditions on earth seem so finely tuned for the existence of life to occur, it must be the cause of an intelligent designer because it's impossible through chance or random physical events alone).
Has anyone been watching the "Catastrophe" series presented by Tony Robinson (aka Baldrick in Blackadder)? It's basically the story behind the creation of planet earth, the emergence of life and the evolution of lifeforms. Amazing stuff and very science based. The last episode in the series is on tonight on Channel 4, 9pm. This one will be about the evolution of humans.
what if extraterestials could live on helium with a temperature of - 33° without oxigen but with 'blablabla-gen' , under a gravity of ...
i mean , everything is possible out there , there is alot more matter then the earthly matter (i suppose) , putting the possibilities of live up.
anyway , i can say i'm 100% shure we're not alone in the universe
even if it can live in that sort of enviroment like star trek makes seem possible or whatever, if that planet gets bombarded by metoers the size of texas and destroys that biodome for the planet thus causing instability that nothing can live in. we need there to be this stability that's what makes our life so fragile, so rare. thoes odds in thre and it greatly reduces the chance for life. not just a snap shot of where the ylive, but thinking over the millions of years for plankton to become humans...
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
even if it can live in that sort of enviroment like star trek makes seem possible or whatever, if that planet gets bombarded by metoers the size of texas and destroys that biodome for the planet thus causing instability that nothing can live in. we need there to be this stability that's what makes our life so fragile, so rare. thoes odds in thre and it greatly reduces the chance for life. not just a snap shot of where the ylive, but thinking over the millions of years for plankton to become humans...
Exactly. (Note to self - I must stopping agreeing with Halph so much.
)
The Earth is fortune to have a massive planet like Jupiter nearby. The strength of Jupiter's gravitational pull is much stronger than the earth's and consequentially it diverts meteorites that are heading towards the earth, and they smash into Jupiter instead. Without a planet like Jupiter nearby, the earth would be much more prone to 'attack' from meteorites.
__ MySpace | Soundcloud | Drumnbass.be | Facebook "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." Carl Sagan
Yes, that holds truth. But also, the numbers hold truth also.
We don't even know how much stars are out there. And we ASSUME that we've seen less than 1% of them all. Taking more of it, we don't even have the technology to spot all the planets and similar on the stars we're already able to see!
from that page:
How to calculate the likelihood of extraterrestrial life
A well-known astronomer named Frank Drake proposed a series of approximations back in 1961 to give us a reasonable estimate of the chances of having an extraterrestrial civilization "out there." It's simple. Just use the calculation N = R*fp nefl fi fcL. Easy, right? Here's what it means:
Called the Drake equation, this calculation starts with total number of stars in a given part of space, say, our galaxy. At any time in the cosmos, some stars are forming. Others are using up their fuel and dying. Still others create more fusion energy than their gravity can contain; they’re exploding. So, astronomers often estimate the total number of stars using a term associated with a rate of star formation. We call it “R*” (R-star). For the Milky Way, it's around 400 billion; hence the expression, "billions and billions" of stars. (This phrase was used by the extraordinary talk show host Johnny Carson, when he parodied the extraordinary astronomer Carl Sagan.)
Then we can consider the percentage or fraction of stars that would also have planets orbiting them. That's fp.
Of those fp planets, what portion of them have conditions that could sustain life, akin to the conditions on our own planet? That's ne, ("n sub-e" for "Earth-like").
Now, the fraction of planets on which self-aware, or "intelligent" life has evolved: fi.
Life on Saturn's moon?
How about the fraction of self-aware-ians (sic) that feel like communicating with other civilizations?: fc.
Then, an important and perhaps sobering one, the lifetime of such a civilization: L
So how many planets could have intelligent life? We write that total number with a capital N.
Again, the calculation N = R*fp nefl fi fcL gives us the likelihood of intelligent life "out there."
So it must be pretty ignorant to put more weight at the -non-believe- side of the spectrum. I don't say we should believe it, or we should not because we have no proof for the both. But I believe the facts are weighting on the -believe- side.
quote:
further quote:
So what's the answer already!?
Let's say there are and were about 400 billion stars in the Milky Way Galaxy when ours came along. Then, let's say only a tenth of them have planets (which is a low estimate). Of those, let's say only a millionth of them are Earth-like. Looking around, life may not be that unlikely, so let's say of these Earth-like planets, the chances of some kind of life happening are about one in ten. Then only a 10,000th of them have intelligent life. Of those, perhaps a 100th stumble on to radio-wave telescopes. Then let's say, once a civilization comes into being, it doesn't blow itself up, catastrophically disrupt its planet's climate, or lose interest in radio astronomy, so it lasts about 10,000 years. So, let's see:
N = (400 billion)(1/10)(1/1,000,000)(1/10)(1/10,000)(1/100)(10,000)
= 40 civilizations.
That's not that many, seeing as how there is so much space in space.
On the other hand, what if these crazy-wild guesses are way off? What if life is very likely? Using clever techniques and telescopes, we have discovered hundreds of planets orbiting other stars, and the search for these planets is in its infancy. What if intelligent civilizations are common? It's easy to use different guesses for each (fudge) factor, recompute this, and estimate that civilizations number not in the dozens, but in the millions. It's quite an exercise.
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If space is indeed infinite then there are infinite stars, infinite planets containing life, infinite planets exactly the same as ours, infinite planets where infinite numbers of me are sitting typing exactly the same thing as me at exactly the same time, infinite numbers of lifeforms that are monitoring your every movement, monitoring a single cell in your body, infinite drum n bass parties, planets where the only music in existence is drum n bass, infinite planets with lifeforms making music so incrediby amazing our tiny brains couldn't comprehend it, and infite planets whos residents' brains would be addled by our music.
This thread reminds me of a conversation I have nearly every time I'm drunk with one of my philosophical mates... surely we've all done it
'Dude, what do you think is up there? Do you think we're alone?'
like i said b4 plz dont beleive what u av been told about stars n space, i can guarantee that almost 50% of what most peps no about space is made up, pure bs by nasa n other world bodies, u gonna av to trust me on this 1, but most the stars that u can see on a clear nite aint stars, peace be with u all on your search 4 truth.
Originally posted by PLaGuE CeLL
If space is indeed infinite then there are infinite stars, infinite planets containing life, infinite planets exactly the same as ours, infinite planets where infinite numbers of me are sitting typing exactly the same thing as me at exactly the same time, infinite numbers of lifeforms that are monitoring your every movement, monitoring a single cell in your body, infinite drum n bass parties, planets where the only music in existence is drum n bass, infinite planets with lifeforms making music so incrediby amazing our tiny brains couldn't comprehend it, and infite planets whos residents' brains would be addled by our music.
This thread reminds me of a conversation I have nearly every time I'm drunk with one of my philosophical mates... surely we've all done it
'Dude, what do you think is up there? Do you think we're alone?'
it's not infinite, is what the suggestion is so far by stephen hawkings and freinds. the theory is about infinte space, finite volume. i.e. the surfact of a ball goes on for infinite in any direction, but it's a limited surface area in total. it goes into the string theory.
i suggest his nice book, big pictures, small ideas, "The Universe in a nutshell".
he'll change that theory soon enough. but what do you want from the smartest man inthe world head of the smartest people in the world, in the seat at the univercity that newton once held.
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Originally posted by kaliyuga
like i said b4 plz dont beleive what u av been told about stars n space, i can guarantee that almost 50% of what most peps no about space is made up, pure bs by nasa n other world bodies, u gonna av to trust me on this 1, but most the stars that u can see on a clear nite aint stars, peace be with u all on your search 4 truth.
it's true some are entire galaxies, or bugs stuck int he blush gunk up thre, or our ancestors looking down on us, or the empire of xenu.
if there not stars, please tell, what are they?
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In terms of popular science lit. 'The Elegant Universe' by Brian Greene (may haev a diff. title in some countries) was pretty good. Starts all nice and gentle with relativity, special relativity etc and progresses into some of the most intriguing theories ever put on paper
Just don't try to visualise 10 dimensional folded spaces, it hurts the brain
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a "simple" equation for life or intelligent life in the universe.
its based on scientific principles and not sci-fi nuts (like myself).
edit: add in "The Great Filter"
The main argument is based on the observation that we have not yet observed extraterrestrial intelligent life, even though we have observed a great number of stars. Therefore, the whole process of starting with a star, and ending with communicating intelligent life, must be unlikely (the Great Filter). This implies that at least one step in this process must be improbable. Hanson listed the likely steps as:
1) The right star system (including organics)
2) Reproductive something (e.g. RNA)
3) Simple (prokaryotic) single-cell life
4) Complex (archaeatic & eukaryotic) single-cell life
5) Sexual reproduction
6) Multi-cell life
7) Tool-using animals with big brains
8 ) Colonization explosion
At least one of these steps must be improbable. If it's not 1-7, then the implication is that our future is bleak. If 1-7 are likely, then many civilizations would have developed to the current level of the human race. However, none have made it to step 8, or the galaxy would be full of colonies. So it must be that step 8 is the unlikely one, and the only thing that appears likely to keep us from step 8 is some sort of catastrophe. So by this argument, finding multi-cellular life on Mars (provided it evolved independently) would be very bad news, since it would imply steps 1-6 are easy, and hence only 7 or 8 could be the big problem. (Note that although step 7 has occurred on Earth, it still might be the unlikely step. We cannot judge using ourselves as an example, since if step 7 had not occurred, there would be no-one to ask the question. This is an excellent example of anthropic bias.)
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'Dude, what do you think is up there? Do you think we're alone?'
