 Dynamic space - yes or no? |
Greyone 
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answer this :
whats the biggest difference between compression and limiting ?
they both have the same effect +- , but are stil different.
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08-05-2008 17:38 |
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Halph-Price
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limiting is a form of compression, it's anything with a ratio 10:1
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08-05-2008 18:27 |
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Tomos
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
... all the music you listnet o on the radio is the exact same, but you don't find people complaing about how crappy the radio sounds like. :/ |
I seriously doubt that. Most music on the radio does sound crap precisely because they compress already over-compressed tunes. This is obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of the effects of compression. Listen to the tune on vinyl or even CD and then compare it to the radio version.
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| dynamic range is an enemy that must be CRUSHED. |
Nah. Dynamic range is a friend that must be enhanced.
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08-05-2008 18:45 |
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Halph-Price
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then use an expander.
but honestly, if you tr to listen to any track their all the same. and this is coming from a genere of music where you "need more sub" that's not dynamic, there's only 2 settings for sub, off and on. there's not really any delicate dynamics with it. if you're playing a live instrument yea maybe some dynamics help, but you can compress and master without killing dynamics. all of my congs are compressed and limited, and they still have dynamics. you just read it in magazines by people that are use to working in a place where drum adn bass never exsisted..
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08-05-2008 18:48 |
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Muad'Dib
Andrejnalin
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Greyone
answer this :
whats the biggest difference between compression and limiting ?
they both have the same effect +- , but are stil different. |
A limiter is a compressor with a very high ratio, just as Halph said. The treshold gives you the ability to determine how loud (or quiet) your limited channel you want to be. It is usually at 0dB, presenting a true limiter, killing the distorting peaks.
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08-05-2008 18:52 |
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Muad'Dib
Andrejnalin
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Tomos
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
... all the music you listnet o on the radio is the exact same, but you don't find people complaing about how crappy the radio sounds like. :/ |
I seriously doubt that. Most music on the radio does sound crap precisely because they compress already over-compressed tunes. This is obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of the effects of compression. Listen to the tune on vinyl or even CD and then compare it to the radio version.
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| dynamic range is an enemy that must be CRUSHED. |
Nah. Dynamic range is a friend that must be enhanced. |
I am here with Tomos.
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08-05-2008 18:53 |
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Halph-Price
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so let's hear any of your tunes uncompressed i can go over it compress them, they'll still have all the same feel nothing changed, just it'll sound warmer and crisper, and a tiny bit louder, unnoticeable difference. the dynamic range can go from "-12db to -1db" to "-9db to -.03db" and you still have the same track, less dynamics, but not in a way that people go, "that track lacks dynamics". with compression, less is more. it's the key to making a nice sub too. because sub bass, which seems to be popular with you kids, sub bass doesn't have dynamics really. because your ears can't hear changes in level of sub that easily.
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08-05-2008 18:57 |
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Muad'Dib
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It was said in the means of getting every instrument space and breath. If you overcompress you just loose the dynamics and the real attack of sounds, such as the snare (it doesn't sound snappy anymore) or the kick (no real attack) etc. You hear everything, yes, but it's not exciting anymore. Not like no compression on anything.
That's why mastering is so hard - balancing between dynamics and overall loudness of a track is a tough job.
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08-05-2008 18:59 |
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Tomos
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
you just read it in magazines by people that are used to working in a place where drum and bass never existed.. |
It doesn't matter where the information comes from, it's still true - even for dnb. Sorry, but I just don't agree with you on this one.
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08-05-2008 19:03 |
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Halph-Price
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it's a synth and sampled drums, it wasn't exciting before.
again if you were playing an instrument i'd be understanding.
but if you over-any effect it'll sound like crap. over compress anything and it'll sound like a drum played through a loud speaker. but, what if you PROPERLY-compress the instrument ? hmmmmmm. this is part of mixing, mastering is overall, and compressing individual instruments is mixing.
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08-05-2008 19:06 |
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Muad'Dib
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Say you have a snare, and you set the attack on extra-fast attack (5 or so ms) and then, you set the ratio to be big enough to make an effect.
What you got is a snap on the snare. An exciting snare. It sounds nothing like driving sand paper on a wood, as the overcompressed snares and songs do, but like a real snare. That's the difference. Not overcompressing. Right compression.
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08-05-2008 19:11 |
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Halph-Price
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i was told it's not a waste using an effect, if you can tell a difference if you turn off that effect, even if it's only very slight.
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08-05-2008 19:24 |
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Tomos
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
it's a synth and sampled drums, it wasn't exciting before. |
Eh? Why would a synth and some sampled drums not be exciting?
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
... what if you PROPERLY-compress the instrument ? hmmmmmm. this is part of mixing, mastering is overall, and compressing individual instruments is mixing. |
Of course. No one is saying that compression must always be avoided. If used properly it will indeed improve a mix. But by 'used properly' it should mean enhancing an already decent sounding mix, IMO. Less is more, like you said. It shouldn't mean squashing all the sounds so that everything is at the same volume throughout the mix, i.e., at full volume. Dynamics actually make the louder parts have more impact and make the quieter parts actually sound quiet (in comparison to the loud parts). Listen to the stuff on the radio - the verses are usually as loud as the chorus, the intros are as loud as the main parts. Consequently, it sounds squashed, lacks impacts and is fatiguing on the ear.
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08-05-2008 19:30 |
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Halph-Price
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but yet even tho you can hear the verse and the chorus are the same levle of sound, for some reasont eh chorus has more energy then the verse. odd. even without that sacred "dynamics" it still has energy. and when cranked up to the loudest setting int he car will fatiuge your ear. but that's teh users own choice to crnak up their music so loud it rattle the trunk. not the raido.
so final word. it's up to the user to decide how loud it is. by having dynamics if they have themusic loud enough at the chorus, they can ehar it moderatly ok, then at the "dynamicly quit" parts of a drum adn bass song (? the intro ?) you'll have a beautiful sound that no one can hear in any othe setting other than in absolute quiet room.
oh and tell me the artist that has good dynamic range in their songs, or a sample of it. it's not really something most people other then you and i even know about. no one goes "check out this song it's got an awsome dynamic range to it".
you can simulate loudness without using volume. hence why there's distortion. there's 2 princples to loudness, quality and quantity. th same as a stage actor stage whisper can be heard in the back of the room. it's not the volume that makes it a whisper, as much as the hoarse quality to the voice. same with the opposite. 2 inst same volume, one distorted and it will be precived to be louder even if it was a few db quieter. hence why the dynamic range debate is so moot. it's just one of the many things that adds dynamics. there's tonal, timbre, instrumentation, melodic, rhythem tonnes of stuff that helps give dynamics to songs. dynamics are over-rated. and it's mostly publications that make it even an issue. and again, mostly from odl white men that are from pre-drum n bass.
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08-05-2008 20:01 |
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Tomos
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
but yet even tho you can hear the verse and the chorus are the same levle of sound, for some reasont eh chorus has more energy then the verse. odd. even without that sacred "dynamics" it still has energy. |
Yeah, but the point is, a tune which retains some dynamics is almost always going to sound better than a compressed tune. And yes, a chorus can still have impact when it's at the same volume as the verse but again, it has even more impact with dynamics. A lot more, in many cases.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
so final word. it's up to the user to decide how loud it is. by having dynamics if they have themusic loud enough at the chorus, they can ehar it moderatly ok, then at the "dynamicly quit" parts of a drum adn bass song (? the intro ?) you'll have a beautiful sound that no one can hear in any othe setting other than in absolute quiet room. |
That's way exaggerated. You don't need an 'absolutely quiet room' to benefit from dynamics. Heavy compression is only really beneficial on things like computer speakers, noisy cars, radio, mobile phones, etc, where the sound has to punch through and compete with a lot of background noise. However, you also need to cater for headphones, home speakers, club speaker systems, even cars with quiet engines, where the benefits of dynamics are really felt. It's about a balance - enough compression in the right places to make it punchy and sufficiently loud, but not so much that it squashes the sound and reduces all the dynamics. You still need to let the sounds 'breathe' and feel natural, even in dnb.
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08-05-2008 20:33 |
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Halph-Price
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so yea compression is only good for when you listnet o music on phone, ipods cars or anywhere else outsid ethe home that most people lsitnet o their music now. :/ no one sits next ot a fucing record palyer with headphones on and listen to music like they did bakc when there was huge dynamic ranges on their "the doors" or "grateful dead" records. dynamic range is prehistoric. just like noise floor. dj's use records, and they crankt eh shit out of the music, and that crushes the dynamic range too, but that is done by damaging the speakers, so if you do it first, you don't have your music blaring at a point where it distortes the spekaers, and sounds better clearer.
but it's misleading to think that all good music doens't benefit from comrpession. whenever you hear live shows every single element is comrpessed. when you listent o any musical records out now, it is compressed, it loses dynamic range and gains volume and thickness. you can go eitehr way wheny ou compress, you can keep dynamic range or take it away, that's up to the mixer, and the goal of the music.
to say anytihng is good or bad is always with an object in the muisc. dynamic range is fucking awaseom for home listening. but for being able to hear it on the tube/subway dynamic range is pretty shitty. for listening to a song on headphones ony uor computer is good to have dynamic range you will just be thrilled. for listening to it while trying to play game,s you won't hear some of it over the noise floor of the game's own noises. for having songs to listen to iny uor hybrid car you'll hear more dynamic range, for listen to music in any other tpye of car, exspecially diesel, dynamic range will make you crank the music up AND ACTUALLY MAKE YOUR EARS FATIUGE FASTER THEN IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE IT COMRPESSED TO A REASONABLE LEVEL.
so basicly, comrpession, as i mention earlier, is counter-intuative. it seems like your making it louder, but if you slid the fader down a bit, you can actually comrpess and reduce the voluem then if you didn't comrpess at all.
i just learned my stuff in live mixing , studio mixing, and at school. not from a magazine, from experince. there was people int eh school that said it was a problem too, but otehr also said, it all depends ont eh tiem. jsut the same as we don't relase cassettes anymore, we don't have as uch dynamic range. it's just the times. you don't make music like the 80's anymore with huge reverbs the same we don't care to have music that we can't hear.
soy ou can dispute it, but when people listne to msuci, people that don't care about dynamic, people taht buy music, they will want the music that sounds louder. it's just what sounds good, you hear more in the muisc, it's what they do in movies, it's what they do on tv, it's what they do in ad's, the louder the more catchier, the more appealing.
dynamics help make it seem louder, but also it has to compete with other sounds in thier enviroment. so not to be ignorant. drum and bass doesn't benefit from dynamic range. you show me a track that does. and the only way you can even TELL is if you look at it with a spectograph, or a waveform display. because good compression is unnoticable. you can hear some quit coutnry songs that on teh peak level are right against the -0.01db the entire time and it's not really noticed.
music and sound is all mind trick. techniquly there is no music, or sound, it's just air movment.
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08-05-2008 21:26 |
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Tomos
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
so yea compression is only good for when you listnet o music on phone, ipods cars or anywhere else outsid ethe home that most people lsitnet o their music now. :/ no one sits next ot a fucing record palyer with headphones on and listen to music like they did bakc when there was huge dynamic ranges on their "the doors" or "grateful dead" records. |
Why do you have to exagerrate an argument to make your own point seem more credible? No one has said that people sit next to a record player with headphones on listening to Grateful Dead records.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
dynamic range is prehistoric. |
Oh c'mon.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
but it's misleading to think that all good music doens't benefit from comrpession. whenever you hear live shows every single element is comrpessed. when you listent o any musical records out now, it is compressed, it loses dynamic range and gains volume and thickness. you can go eitehr way wheny ou compress, you can keep dynamic range or take it away, that's up to the mixer, and the goal of the music. |
Exactly. No one is arguing otherwise.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
dynamic range is fucking awaseom for home listening. but for being able to hear it on the tube/subway dynamic range is pretty shitty. for listening to a song on headphones ony uor computer is good to have dynamic range you will just be thrilled. for listening to it while trying to play game,s you won't hear some of it over the noise floor of the game's own noises. |
Mate, that's exactly the point I was trying to make.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
for having songs to listen to iny uor hybrid car you'll hear more dynamic range, for listen to music in any other tpye of car, exspecially diesel, dynamic range will make you crank the music up AND ACTUALLY MAKE YOUR EARS FATIUGE FASTER THEN IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE IT COMRPESSED TO A REASONABLE LEVEL. |
Errr no, because if music is played at a constant volume it is usually more fatiging that if it has dynamics.
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
i just learned my stuff in live mixing , studio mixing, and at school. not from a magazine, from experince. |
Really? So did I. I do ocassionally read about compression and dynamics - but it's only from actual experience that I find out it's true.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
jsut the same as we don't relase cassettes anymore, we don't have as uch dynamic range. it's just the times. you don't make music like the 80's anymore with huge reverbs the same we don't care to have music that we can't hear. |
This is wrong thinking, imo. Just because it's the popular thing these days, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Many of the older records sound better than they do these days. For example, listen to the new "remastered" versions of the old records - they usually sound pretty bad. They certainly haven't got the depth and dynamics of the original version.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
soy ou can dispute it, but when people listne to msuci, people that don't care about dynamic, people taht buy music, they will want the music that sounds louder. it's just what sounds good, you hear more in the muisc, it's what they do in movies, it's what they do on tv, it's what they do in ad's, the louder the more catchier, the more appealing. |
Again, just because it's popular right now, doesn't mean it's the best way. It's quite possible that dynamic tunes will become fashionable when the compression-loudness wars have reached their limit. Also, you must remember that people have heard so many over-compressed tunes over the last 10-5 years that it seems perfectly normal to them. But it still doesn't mean that heavy-compressed tunes sound better than tunes with more dynamics.
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
good compression is unnoticable. |
That's exactly my point. And it's only unnoticeable when the sounds retain some 'naturalness' and some dynamics.
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08-05-2008 22:12 |
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Halph-Price
Zombie Algorithm
Registration Date: 22-12-2004
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Tomos
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
so yea compression is only good for when you listnet o music on phone, ipods cars or anywhere else outsid ethe home that most people lsitnet o their music now. :/ no one sits next ot a fucing record palyer with headphones on and listen to music like they did bakc when there was huge dynamic ranges on their "the doors" or "grateful dead" records. |
Why do you have to exagerrate an argument to make your own point seem more credible? No one has said that people sit next to a record player with headphones on.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
dynamic range is prehistoric. |
Oh c'mon.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
but it's misleading to think that all good music doens't benefit from comrpession. whenever you hear live shows every single element is comrpessed. when you listent o any musical records out now, it is compressed, it loses dynamic range and gains volume and thickness. you can go eitehr way wheny ou compress, you can keep dynamic range or take it away, that's up to the mixer, and the goal of the music. |
Exactly. No one is arguing otherwise.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
dynamic range is fucking awaseom for home listening. but for being able to hear it on the tube/subway dynamic range is pretty shitty. for listening to a song on headphones ony uor computer is good to have dynamic range you will just be thrilled. for listening to it while trying to play game,s you won't hear some of it over the noise floor of the game's own noises. |
Mate, that's exactly the point I was trying to make.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
for having songs to listen to iny uor hybrid car you'll hear more dynamic range, for listen to music in any other tpye of car, exspecially diesel, dynamic range will make you crank the music up AND ACTUALLY MAKE YOUR EARS FATIUGE FASTER THEN IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE IT COMRPESSED TO A REASONABLE LEVEL. |
Errr no, because if music is played at a constant volume it is usually more fatiging that if it has dynamics.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
i just learned my stuff in live mixing , studio mixing, and at school. not from a magazine, from experince. |
Really? So did I. I do ocassionally read about compression and dynamics - but it's only from actual experience that I find out it's true.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
jsut the same as we don't relase cassettes anymore, we don't have as uch dynamic range. it's just the times. you don't make music like the 80's anymore with huge reverbs the same we don't care to have music that we can't hear. |
This is wrong thinking, imo. Just because it's the popular thing these days, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Many of the older records sound better than they do these days. For example, listen to the new "remastered" versions of the old records - they usually sound pretty bad. They certainly haven't got the depth and dynamics of the original version.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
soy ou can dispute it, but when people listne to msuci, people that don't care about dynamic, people taht buy music, they will want the music that sounds louder. it's just what sounds good, you hear more in the muisc, it's what they do in movies, it's what they do on tv, it's what they do in ad's, the louder the more catchier, the more appealing. |
Again, just because it's popular right now, doesn't mean it's the best way. It's quite possible that dynamic tunes will become fashionable when the compression-loudness wars have reached their limit. Also, you must remember that people have heard so many over-compressed tunes over the last 10-5 years that it seems perfectly normal to them. But it still doesn't mean that heavy-compressed tunes sound better than tunes with more dynamics.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
good compression is unnoticable. |
That's exactly my point. And it's only unnoticeable when the sounds retain some 'naturalness' and some dynamics. |
the reason that it's more fatiging to have dynamics, is that you have to turn up the mix to hear the music more.
i.e. dnyamic going form -12db to -3db to hear the -12db you have to turn it then if was squashed down to -9 to -1db even. again if you comrpess eh average volume is braught up so you don't need to have the mix/song turned up as loud. not saying that some people still won't set their mp3 palyer to max the entire time, and will definatly cause more fatiging then a song with more dynamics. so that's due to user. so constant volume can cause mroe fatiging ONLY if the user cranks it up to the same volume as if the song has the same dynamics as you would hope a song would have.
anyways,the main thing, the main argument i have is this.
the main reason to squash
mp3 players are new. the record player with headphones is how my father use to have to listen to all music. so it may seem exaggerated but the portable music player only start in 1984. and recorded music only start in 1870s. most people listen to music on mp3 palyers, or int he car. both of which ambient noise will detract from your song. this is a new thing, a lot fo the audio guys from 30 years ago never had to consider this.
but it should go down to the lowest common denominator. because of teh change of accessability to music, it is important to make it easier for the user to listen to your music, then straining to hear the song, because it's too quiet, adn their iPod doesn't have an external amp to boost the output on it.
but if you think that's wrong and that dynamic rnag eis the future, then show me a track with it. if it's so good adn people liked it, then what. yea maybe audiophiles will like it better if ti had the subtlness on a $10,000 sound system, but they arn't the average person.
YOU are the one that will listen to the music when you're outside of the house. and you like the compressed music, without even knowing it. and if no one ever said anything about this, you'd never evne know.
but you'd wonder how cany ou get your songs to sound that way. it makes a track sound pro. without a doubt. unarguably. that's the first thing you'd notice before the song got anywhere. it doens't sound pro if it's not sounding like it was mastered by being 'quashed. for better or worse, i never saw where drum and bass uses dynamics, but not in instruments being dynamic, you have the quiet part before the drop. tradtionally it's you stop the drums, teh bar before. that's how they get around there being elss dynamic range.
i havn't seen music suffering. if anytihng music si so popular and wide range now, it's accessable to everyone practicly all the tiem. there is too much muisc. so that loss of dynamics hasn't hurt anyone. they hurt themselves by playing it to loud.
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08-05-2008 23:43 |
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Muad'Dib
Andrejnalin
Registration Date: 02-12-2003
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Moved the thread here...
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09-05-2008 01:02 |
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