 Dynamic space - yes or no? |
BattleDrone 
2161... the future.
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
fucking awsome, thanks for telling, i dobut many people would have noticed you did that. we would have thorugh some mod seperated the thread. now we know. it was a nagging question. very astute of you to announce it too,
thanks for being off fucking topic. |
Chill dude...
No wonder most people aren't posting in this thread.
What's so important that you need to get on people's nerves like this?
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09-05-2008 10:21 |
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BattleDrone
2161... the future.
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
soy ou can dispute it, but when people listne to msuci, people that don't care about dynamic, people taht buy music, they will want the music that sounds louder.
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People that buy music do this mostly because it is played by mtv or their friends, not because it is louder. Audio geeks might buy a record because it is louder, normal people don't. You are just projecting your own ideas onto the masses.
Compressing is like adding flavour, upto a certain point it is ok, but a lot of food nowadays has so much added flavour that natural products seem to be tasteless, same goes for music. If you add too much flavour it will be disgusting. Compression is your friend, but don't go into the loudness war, it's silly and you must hate your music to rape it like that.
One of the illnesses in modern DNB is that it is made by geeks for geeks. Tunes with good production and no creative input are rinsed to death and good tunes that lack production quality are being hated. No wonder DnB goes down hill, bunch of snobs. No wonder dubstep is on the rise, the production quality is not so much in focus there (yet), it still is a scene where music is being liked for the vibe and the feel.
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
it's just what sounds good, you hear more in the muisc, it's what they do in movies, it's what they do on tv, it's what they do in ad's, the louder the more catchier, the more appealing.
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It's what I hate and a lot of people do. I change the channel when adds pop up because it is plain annoying how loud they are. There are limits to good taste and they have past the line quite a while ago.
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
jsut the same as we don't relase cassettes anymore, we don't have as uch dynamic range. it's just the times. you don't make music like the 80's anymore with huge reverbs the same we don't care to have music that we can't hear.
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There's no point in this, you are just projecting your own ideas onto the masses again. People don't care about cassettes because the industry has moved on. A CD was much easier to use and an mp3 player is even more easy. And especially, it is much easier to get your hands onto (illegal copies of) music. Before CD's came into fashion a cassette was the thing to use. No one ever bought an mp3 player because it sounds better than a cassette, in fact the sound quality of an ipod with any average mp3 file is very questionable. None of those 15 year olds gives a fuck about dynamic range, compression, loudness, clipping,...
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
music and sound is all mind trick. techniquly there is no music, or sound, it's just air movment. |
If you want to analyse it like this then you are mostly water.
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09-05-2008 10:55 |
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Sephiroth
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dynamic space - yes imo. people seem to think compressing audio makes it sound better on cheaper equipment and at a wider range of listening levels but thats only true to an extent cuz if ur squashing dynamic range too much, poorer equipment can make things sound worse, much worse.
Also its only really 'commericial' music nowadays that are victim to the "loudness war", theres still well-produced music being made that doesn't prey fall to the 'over-compression' trend.
"Compressing is like adding flavour, upto a certain point it is ok, but a lot of food nowadays has so much added flavour that natural products seem to be tasteless"
spot on 
said like a true poet.
p.s. how do you qoute a previous post?? 
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09-05-2008 11:27 |
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Muad'Dib
Andrejnalin
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
fucking awsome, thanks for telling, i dobut many people would have noticed you did that. we would have thorugh some mod seperated the thread. now we know. it was a nagging question. very astute of you to announce it too,
thanks for being off fucking topic. |
Dude, the whole conversation went off-topic (it was about sub-bass), so, I transfered the posts into a more suitable, new thread. I anounced so that people who were reading the first thread to know that this discussion is moved to another.
So chill... and check your pm.
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09-05-2008 12:23 |
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Muad'Dib
Andrejnalin
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| quote: |
Originally posted by sephiroth
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p.s. how do you qoute a previous post??
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You have a button above the post, [Quote]. Click on it, and it will automatically quote that post. It's right next to [Reply].
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09-05-2008 12:23 |
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Sephiroth
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Muad'Dib
[quote]Originally posted by sephiroth
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p.s. how do you qoute a previous post??
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You have a button above the post,
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| . Click on it, and it will automatically quote that post. It's right next to [Reply]. |
aha! thank you very much Muad'Dib 
you learn something new everyday.......
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09-05-2008 12:36 |
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Halph-Price
Zombie Algorithm
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Muad'Dib
| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
fucking awsome, thanks for telling, i dobut many people would have noticed you did that. we would have thorugh some mod seperated the thread. now we know. it was a nagging question. very astute of you to announce it too,
thanks for being off fucking topic. |
Dude, the whole conversation went off-topic (it was about sub-bass), so, I transfered the posts into a more suitable, new thread. I anounced so that people who were reading the first thread to know that this discussion is moved to another.
So chill... and check your pm. |
no problem i was done posting about this, i was just razzing. just when i was done it got a thread, i knew that would happen. and i havn't got anything in the pm,
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09-05-2008 16:46 |
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Halph-Price
Zombie Algorithm
Registration Date: 22-12-2004
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| quote: |
Originally posted by BattleDrone
People that buy music do this mostly because it is played by mtv or their friends, not because it is louder. Audio geeks might buy a record because it is louder, normal people don't. You are just projecting your own ideas onto the masses.
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http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM contradictory statments are not arguments.
by what proof is that, other then you claim it. the audi geeks don't buy records becaus eti's louder, they a minority, the loudness war coems form what the majority wants. you're the audio geek saying dynamic range is better. the masses buy a song not becaus eit's louder, but the loudness is what gets them. all of the new rock today, is twice as loud as any other rock cd before. it's not the loudness that makes them buy it, it's the loudness that help assists in making it seem more appealing to people, in a subtle way that is by no means obvious, because again, it is a subjective thing that no one, NOBODY, NOT A SINGLE PERSON EVER THINKS AT ALL ABOUT DYNAMIC RANGE OTHER THEN AUDIO GEEKS.
as i called the audiophiles. i stated that, the louder music isn't for audio geeks at all. but you seem to have a convinceing argument. nice examples. i am done this debate if you just claim random shit.
but the reason for the lack of dynamics, is a pracical purpose. so you can hear the music anywher eyou go. it's certinly not an artistic expression. it's not making a bold statment. it's for a purpose. an objective. that's how you can makr it good or bad. objective: hearing the music anywhere , dynamic range is bad for that. so i am justified in saying that, and this is the the whole reason for it.
mastering is not about art. mastering is about making a product. the analogy between changing mediums, like record to cassette to cd is the same reason as masting the mix louder it's not about the art, but the artist will be mad. ARtist: "the cd doens't sound as good as the record" consumer:"whatever, who cares" most would say if you explainaed it all to them, but you don't have to.
the same reason you master it louder, is the same reason you downlaod the mp3. because it's more practical. it has nothing to do with the atistic expression. there are benefits either way, for records or mp3, or for loud or "dynamic" is. but int he end it comes down to what is practicality, in all areas. there will always be a minority, who likes the record better, and a minority who likes the dynamic range of older music. elitests. they are not the common denominator.
ultimatly it is made to seem liek a "war" but that's just what american's do, amke everytihng seem liek combat. it's in their nature. it's not a war. it's like saying a "medium war" with mp3's taking over. it's not a war, it's supply - demand. people want music they can listen to anywhere. with the rise of mp3's there is a correlation fo the rise of "loudness war" it's not just random luck. it doens't matter what type of music, it's all going that direction, and it doesn't effect us. nowy ou can eitehr accept it, which isn't hard with this genre of music, relativly speaking, or you can bitch about it, because that's what you've read.
you've faield to prove anything convincing at all, just making up contradictory stuff that i have read some in a magazine, otehr stuff that defies common sense.
so bottem line, if you want regular people to your music consider using some premo mastering stuff, i suggest Voxengo's plug-in's they are the best, most transperant, fantastic mastering plug-in's i ahve ever had the joy of using and use it for every product i ever render. i have a preset for it, that works simply, and it's adaptivness makes it like i have my own mastering guy there for me with a case of analog shit.
mastering studios, good ones, will have a single compressor that will cost as much as house, custom made. that's what you need. none of that wave bundle shit. IMHO!
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This post has been edited 3 time(s), it was last edited by Halph-Price: 09-05-2008 20:36.
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09-05-2008 16:52 |
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Tomos
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OK, this is probably the last time I will respond to Halph on this thread because the discussion is starting to repeat itself...
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
the reason that it's more fatiging to have dynamics, is that you have to turn up the mix to hear the music more. |
No, you've missed the point. The compressed tune will (usually) have full levels throughout the track and your ears are not able rest. The dynamic tune will have more ups and downs, allowing your ears to rest at certain points and provide a more 'natural' sound.
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
not saying that some people still won't set their mp3 palyer to max the entire time, and will definatly cause more fatiging then a song with more dynamics. so that's due to user. |
No, it's caused by the extra compression and loss of dynamics.
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
but if you think that's wrong and that dynamic rnag eis the future, then show me a track with it. |
Well, it's not DNB, but some fairly recent examples of good sounding albums with dynamics would be Nirvana's "Nevermind" and Rage Against the Machine's debut album. You can easily tell they are not nearly as compressed as today's tunes because you have to turn the volume dial up to achieve a loud volume. But once you do, they sound absolutely fantastic.
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
if it's so good adn people liked it, then what. yea maybe audiophiles will like it better if ti had the subtlness on a $10,000 sound system, but they arn't the average person. |
This is very misleading because you don't need a '$10,000 sound system' to experience the benefits of dynamic music. Yes, today's music needs to sound good on ipods, computer speakers, and other modern gadgets, but even so, heavily compressed tunes still sound squashed and fatiguing compared to more dynamic music. The fact that dynamic tunes sound quieter than heavily compressed tunes is not a problem because all you have to do is turn the volume dial up a little.
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
YOU are the one that will listen to the music when you're outside of the house. and you like the compressed music, without even knowing it. and if no one ever said anything about this, you'd never evne know. |
That's wrong because even if you're not consciously aware of it, you can still hear the difference between dynamic and heavily compressed tunes. An ordinary person might not know why or how a dynamic tune sounds better, but that's not the point. People can still tell the difference. I've heard quite a number of 30+ people who have mentioned how older tunes (usually on vinyl) sound better than they do today. And in a lot of cases, I tend to agree with them.
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09-05-2008 19:26 |
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Halph-Price
Zombie Algorithm
Registration Date: 22-12-2004
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records to sound better. their sample rate is analog. in digital terms it's sample rate is INFINITE. that's a much bigger improvment. but were talking about real world now. audiophiles might have record players, they are th eones with 10,000 speakers. they are the ones that benefit from higher resolution, both in dynamics and sample rates.
they are not the common denimonitor, i fucking said tha ttoo adny ou took the 10,000 doller example and said i was misleading, i wasn't i was making a point about the minority, FOR FUCK SAKES.
the common deninom is ear bud wearing mp3 players, they are th ones tha tbenefit from the compression. LOWEST COMMON DENIMOINATOR. for practical reasons.
and damnit tomos i was saying you can onyl turn up the volume dial so much without actually getting a external amp for your mobile device. and also i stated that causes more fatiging on the ears then if the music was at the right volume level to start with, giving the user at how high or low they want it. fuck but you got me i am must be wrong there, you have sucha better argument if you just ignore everyhing i state.
sorry for being angry, i just don't like to be misrepersented. and also sorry for my bad typing. i am just trying to help you out. I was told there's a problem with it and all too. but not for any good reason why NOT to.
some say http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ is even a good example of it. it just clips the track practicly. but again the real "dynamics" from real "insturments".
sampled beat and synths arn't exactly the "Warmest" "crispest" insturments. they are synthetic and cold and digital. they start off being lower sample rates then anytihng real. except for actual voltage synths. like an old moog or arp.
but i needn't explain that it should be self apprant. now before anyone else replies, please stat exmaples. the music sounds better, but again. so does records. if you're so adament about quality of your sampled and synthisied music, then by all means realse everything via records and you don't have to worry about my trying to help you out.
the same reason vhs out sold beta and laser disc is not quality, people rarly care about quality except for the few elite, or audio/video geeks or whatever. they will always want quality. but the majority go for what's easier and more accessable. soy uo can make the choice and go FUCK THEM, i don't want them listening to my music, they'll convert or die. or you can just do what people actaully enjoy. because then they can hear the music.
and ironicly i could comrpess something and make it have more dynamics also. hence why i have a special setup for mastering just drum breaks, that makes them have more of thoes peaks, and for the track the final compression i try to just make it so the chorus part is the only section that's really pushing the limiter. my music isn't overly compresse dliek radio pop songs. but thoes songs are overly compressed for teh radio which, by law, has to compress them.
so define the objective then you can say if it's good or bad. the needs of the many out waigh the needs of the few.
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This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by Halph-Price: 09-05-2008 21:27.
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09-05-2008 21:10 |
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Tomos
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Halph, calm down. There's no need to get angry about dynamics mate. Needless to say, I disagree with some of the comments in your previous post but, for me at least, I'm calling it a day. Like I said, I just don't agree with you and we'll have to differ on this one.
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09-05-2008 21:24 |
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D2o
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09-05-2008 22:25 |
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Halph-Price
Zombie Algorithm
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09-05-2008 22:31 |
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Halph-Price
Zombie Algorithm
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I know it looks bad, but i am not trying to prove "i think i am right" i just try to explain what i think. everyone else just said "no you tihnk wrong" and, obviously didn't read what i wrote either, and just stated something that contradicted me, making me look like i am in the wrong.
mostly what everyone else said is "NO, DYNAMICS MAKE MUSIC BETTER". :/
i want to know why they think that, but nobody cares to expand. stating an statment that it the opposite isn't an argument.
i don't go to everyone adn say "NO YOUR WRONG" i am saying "WHY ARE YOU SAYING THAT" it dones't make any sense too me.
tomos is the aragent one saiyng i have "missed the point", and that i am "wrong" with only one sentance. and then ignoreing what i have said about other stuff. i have made my self very clear adn explained it all.
i used too mcuh detail sorry. but whatver, i am trying to help, if that's arrogent ... 
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This post has been edited 5 time(s), it was last edited by Halph-Price: 09-05-2008 22:55.
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09-05-2008 22:46 |
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Seven Gun
dotbee 4eva
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Ghost
(granted i havent read it all as its long)
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LOL
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09-05-2008 22:56 |
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