 Musical talent - can you learn it or are you born with it? |
TechDiff
Hetty Jakes Pretentious Cheese Wog
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Originally posted by GreatFisherCat
Musically talented people learn Musicality faster. But All do learn.
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Thats utter tripe. Its an unfortunate reality that some people can do some things that others cant. Point in case, why is it that you get some old guy who's been playing guitar everyday of his life for years and is mediocre, and you get some kid who's been playing for a couple years and can shred till the cows come home.
Another example, I have a friend who loves music, listens to music all day everyday, yet he has no actual ability for it. He cannot dance in time, he cannot sing (anywhere near) in tune. He cant even tap his fingers in time with a beat. He is a musical retard, and not for lack of trying.
Its been said before and it'll be said again, if there wasnt such a thing as talent, then everyone who practiced would become good. This does not happen, perhaps people will become competent, but that is a world apart from gifted. The question should be whether if people are born with a musical aptitude, or whether its a much more open situation, perhaps this kind of person has the ability to become expert at anything they turn their hand to.
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15-05-2007 22:08 |
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BattleDrone 
2161... the future.
Registration Date: 30-12-2005
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Originally posted by thechronic
Take 10 babies from musically talented parents, isolate them from music until they are 20 and give them a guitar. They wouldn't know what to do with it 
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Yo Chron, you can be awfully cruel at times 
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16-05-2007 00:35 |
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GreatFisherCat
Cool Producer
Registration Date: 21-06-2005
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| quote: |
Originally posted by TechDiff
| quote: |
Originally posted by GreatFisherCat
Musically talented people learn Musicality faster. But All do learn.
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Thats utter tripe. Its an unfortunate reality that some people can do some things that others cant. Point in case, why is it that you get some old guy who's been playing guitar everyday of his life for years and is mediocre, and you get some kid who's been playing for a couple years and can shred till the cows come home.
Another example, I have a friend who loves music, listens to music all day everyday, yet he has no actual ability for it. He cannot dance in time, he cannot sing (anywhere near) in tune. He cant even tap his fingers in time with a beat. He is a musical retard, and not for lack of trying.
Its been said before and it'll be said again, if there wasnt such a thing as talent, then everyone who practiced would become good. This does not happen, perhaps people will become competent, but that is a world apart from gifted. The question should be whether if people are born with a musical aptitude, or whether its a much more open situation, perhaps this kind of person has the ability to become expert at anything they turn their hand to. |
I know exactly, what kind of people you mean. Mostly because I am one of them 
For me, revelation was music theory and professional training. On those courses last autumn, teacher managed to open some locks inside my brain, and I suddenly started to understand what I hear a bit better. I am not a beethofen or never will be, but that's mostly because I train too little and in wrong way. It might take 30 years, but I wan't to keep options open for me, so I atleast claim that I would be able to reach that high level of musicality
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16-05-2007 06:26 |
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equipped
tired
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Techdiff was creapn.
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16-05-2007 08:25 |
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Muad'Dib
Andrejnalin
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| quote: |
Originally posted by thechronic
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Originally posted by Muad'Dib
Yeah, but they might be able to find the notes and chords more easily than some other... |
Nope they wouldn't understand the purpose.
Notes and chords are part of culture. And only western culture for that matter. Other parts of the world use other note scales, other chords. Or even no melodies but only rhythms.
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I think that they are interconnected. Chords don't come out purely out of culture, nor does culture comes out purely of combination of sounds the people call music. Those babies (children) might find that some combination of sounds that they strike on the guitar sound more 'right' than other, and what combinations will sound right for them and what not largely depends on their genetic predispositions for such type of sounds, on the living conditions, the environment, the sounds that exist all around them, and such things.
EDIT: I've come up on this book some time ago, and it says about what's music. A free research book on what we call music, and how different cultures/people like and build different types of music.
The basics are that we build our music modeled by the rhythm and vocal properties of our own speech. Read it, it's a nice resource.
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16-05-2007 18:34 |
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Halph-Price
Zombie Algorithm
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Muad'Dib
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Originally posted by Halph-Price
he learned it from listening. not just listening but crticaly listening, where he could write the entire symphony from memory. |
Not just that, he was a kid, and kid's brain learn much faster some areas because they are kinda empty and suck on information... I bet he couldn't write his name, though, or failed at maths or something...
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there's actually 2 crucial times in your life when the brain will change synapeses the easiest. at the age of 2 -5 and the age of 12-15 it's a bit different for everyone, i think the older age is a bit more broader to change since it also relates to puberty.
but these are the teims that you can learn music and hobbies the best and gain from them the most. these change you for the rest of your life, if you let them.
the difference between you and anyone else is not potential. but integrity. I have seen classmates that could not read no write at there grade level and struggled hard while it came easily toe veryone else. I saw this same classmate become val victorian of the class.
it's the perseverance that makes individuals unique, not talent. We all have potential, but only limited time. just like anyone that says they have no time to learn an insturment. no one does. people only make time for it.
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16-05-2007 19:01 |
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Halph-Price
Zombie Algorithm
Registration Date: 22-12-2004
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Muad'Dib
| quote: |
Originally posted by thechronic
| quote: |
Originally posted by Muad'Dib
Yeah, but they might be able to find the notes and chords more easily than some other... |
Nope they wouldn't understand the purpose.
Notes and chords are part of culture. And only western culture for that matter. Other parts of the world use other note scales, other chords. Or even no melodies but only rhythms.
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I think that they are interconnected. Chords don't come out purely out of culture, nor does culture comes out purely of combination of sounds the people call music. Those babies (children) might find that some combination of sounds that they strike on the guitar sound more 'right' than other, and what combinations will sound right for them and what not largely depends on their genetic predispositions for such type of sounds, on the living conditions, the environment, the sounds that exist all around them, and such things.
EDIT: I've come up on this book some time ago, and it says about what's music. A free research book on what we call music, and how different cultures/people like and build different types of music.
The basics are that we build our music modeled by the rhythm and vocal properties of our own speech. Read it, it's a nice resource. |
our chords are pretty much from european culture. we do not have the same rhythems that others do, nor micro scales of others. IN south america there are hundreds of rhythems that have names that are learned. that's part of their music.
we take the natural harmonics and think that all music is based off of that. all of our chords and scales all come from the NATURAL harmonics that exsit in nature, that long ago were seen as being DIVINE! the unharmonics, like the middle eastern sounidng, Harmonic Minor scales, were seen as EVIL! SATANIC!
This is where we came from and we're are "music" comes from. in india there are musical scales that do not fallow the natural harmonics and are off tuned, on purpose, and can have upto 15 notes in a single scale, instad of our 12 notes!!! some can be as less as 5...
What we takes as music is vastly different culture to culture. music is much more comples and sophisticated. It's akin to speech, as Muad'Dib says in his last post.
Every instruemnt, except the piano with it's many many notes that could onyl be done with a choir usually, can be done with the human voice alone. You can hear a guitar solo and tihnk that it sounds like a vocal going along, with triplets and not even know that english speech patterns use triplets often.
children do not get born with music, just like children do not get born wtih speech, INATLEY. They do vary in talent for how quick they pick it up. this does not mean some people are better or worse. this just means some people have to spend longer to learn. the potnetial is the same.
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16-05-2007 19:10 |
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tetsuo
Guiness factory
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interest>>>motivation
motivation>> hard work
hard word>> success
Perfection is only reachable by repetition.
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Yesterday' s futur is today!! 
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16-05-2007 19:13 |
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tryptech
Tryptech
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Just try to play the song in your head and rebuilt it it slowly in your sequencer. Your sequencer and your head should be one,the mor esongs you make the greater the connection between them will fonctionnate
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ANALOGUE (Tryptech)
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17-05-2007 00:08 |
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Halph-Price
Zombie Algorithm
Registration Date: 22-12-2004
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| quote: |
Originally posted by TechDiff
| quote: |
Originally posted by GreatFisherCat
Musically talented people learn Musicality faster. But All do learn.
|
Thats utter tripe. Its an unfortunate reality that some people can do some things that others cant. Point in case, why is it that you get some old guy who's been playing guitar everyday of his life for years and is mediocre, and you get some kid who's been playing for a couple years and can shred till the cows come home.
Another example, I have a friend who loves music, listens to music all day everyday, yet he has no actual ability for it. He cannot dance in time, he cannot sing (anywhere near) in tune. He cant even tap his fingers in time with a beat. He is a musical retard, and not for lack of trying.
Its been said before and it'll be said again, if there wasnt such a thing as talent, then everyone who practiced would become good. This does not happen, perhaps people will become competent, but that is a world apart from gifted. The question should be whether if people are born with a musical aptitude, or whether its a much more open situation, perhaps this kind of person has the ability to become expert at anything they turn their hand to. |
where have you eve seen a guy that played guitar every day and is mediocre? i bet he could be signed onto some folk label at least. even if he "sucked" it would be only because it's not like classical guitar, but how most folk music is played, from self teaching. trust me.
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17-05-2007 02:59 |
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cynik
Cp6uja
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17-05-2007 07:51 |
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cynik
Cp6uja
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when it comes to art any tutoring is obsolete. especially since we're talking electronic music here, and highly advanced and constantly evolving such as todays drum n bass. who the hell can teach you that?
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17-05-2007 13:48 |
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Muad'Dib
Andrejnalin
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| quote: |
Originally posted by cynik
when it comes to art any tutoring is obsolete. especially since we're talking electronic music here, and highly advanced and constantly evolving such as todays drum n bass. who the hell can teach you that? |
Noone can teach you art, but can guide you to teach yourself. Like, someone that knows way much about art, so when you make something, he recognizes the style you're about to develop and says that you need to work some more.
Or, if someone teaches you how to use your sequencer, explains all the plugins, gives some examples, and then lets you alone.
That's a real help.
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17-05-2007 18:20 |
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TechDiff
Hetty Jakes Pretentious Cheese Wog
Registration Date: 14-06-2005
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
where have you eve seen a guy that played guitar every day and is mediocre? i bet he could be signed onto some folk label at least. even if he "sucked" it would be only because it's not like classical guitar, but how most folk music is played, from self teaching. trust me. |
Unfortunately, I saw these people everyday when I was working in a guitar shop. Im not strictly refering to classical styles. That form of guitar playing very technical indeed, and requires an imense about of tutoring in order to become competant. But with more free styles such as rock and as you mentioned folk. A huge amount can be learnt by yourself. Although, much of the "correct" way of playing is best taught. Its too easy to get into bad habits from self tutoring. Anyway. This is beside the point.
I still am sure that some people have a natural aptitude for some things. While at music collage I noticed it a lot. There were some people who would practice sooo much, and still not be able to fully grasp what theyre learning, and then others who did fuck all practice, fuck all revision, no effort, but could fully understand extreamely complex areas of theory.
Perhaps technical areas can be learnt by pretty much all, with enough practice. But music in its purest sense, is something that people either get, or they dont Someone mentioned the beatles, another good example would be Aphex. Aggain he is someone who has had absolutely no training, and his chord progressions are totally unique, but stuff such as SAW 2 seems to create such amazing textures and colours. He just knows what works.
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17-05-2007 19:12 |
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junkhole
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something i haven't noticed anyone saying is the mathematics side of music. the initial icon of discussion was mozart. mozart didn't just understand the musical theory as we are talking about it, he understood the mathematical intervals and solutions of notes.
he studied from a work called 'Gradus ad Parnassum' which was theory for people who had a means without a teacher. mozart had a teacher but he still used this transciprt. you can now buy this work translated, it is called "The Study of Counterpoint" and an editor by the name of Alfred Mann has made this available as completely as he can. it starts of with basic note against note melody and by the end of the book it is crazy the stuff that you can write by following the basic laws.
i use this classical method in writing d'n'b. i will poke out a melody on my keyboard and then write a harmony to it using intervals of notes to achieve my insinuated emotional feeling. then by dynamics (how loud and how soft note are) and timing i get the feeling down.
all learned.
i have played drums for 14 years, but still when it comes to the groove feeling right it takes some crazy practicing and rehearsing.
new to my instrumental weaponry is the chapman stick... as soon as i got this instrument i was playing crazy harmonies and what not on it. www.stick.com i am by no means a virtuoso but i don't sound like an idiot playing it.
you can learn it all. as long as you realize you will always have to learn more you will learn it. sound stupid but its true, someone already said it takes hard work.
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19-05-2007 05:15 |
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Halph-Price
Zombie Algorithm
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| quote: |
Originally posted by gls
The thing about theory is that its only a tool and shouldn't be stuck to rigidly. For example the Beatles couldn't read music and didn't understand theory when they started out and that's why their chord changes were so different to anything else at the time, they just did what sounded good to them and not what the books said was right. Mozart also used to write chords progressions that went against convention and broke all the rules, so if any of them had just stuck to the theory they wouldn't have made half the impact that they did.
Theory is just like a using map to navigate, sometimes it's useful to help you get from a to b but other times it can just lead you into a traffic jam and get you lost.
Just do what feels right, if it sounds good then it is good. |
that's the oddest thing i learned in theory, was that every classical song fallows a structure, but you'll never find one that fallows it exactly. there's always deviations. but yet, like dnb, they have the same song structure, but it would sound entirly boring if no one ever experimented. it's not just the beatles or mozart, EVERY song is like tihs.
it fallows a pattern but the true artistic creativity is the parts that do not fallow the pattern.
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19-05-2007 19:52 |
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Muad'Dib
Andrejnalin
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
...it fallows a pattern but the true artistic creativity is the parts that do not fallow the pattern. |
I'm more into "the true artistic creativity is the combination between those two".
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20-05-2007 10:01 |
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gls
Steppa
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Halph-Price
[quote]that's the oddest thing i learned in theory, was that every classical song fallows a structure, but you'll never find one that fallows it exactly. there's always deviations. but yet, like dnb, they have the same song structure, but it would sound entirly boring if no one ever experimented. it's not just the beatles or mozart, EVERY song is like tihs.
it fallows a pattern but the true artistic creativity is the parts that do not fallow the pattern. |
If it wasn't for the fact that most songs I hear (not dnb but in general) have no real experimentation and just seem to follow either the i-V or I-IV-V chord progressions I might have agreed... what was it status quo said about you only ever need to learn 3 chords?
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20-05-2007 13:18 |
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